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You may call it a rhetorical question, someone else might see it as bad faith to ask about the government's rationale if you have no intention of actually liste

You may call it a rhetorical question, someone else might see it as bad faith to ask about the government's rationale if you have no intention of actually listening to their reasons. You're not going to have any success convincing the average Chinese citizen that locking up Uyghurs is wrong if you're not going to engage with their concerns (the belief that if not for the government's actions they might be at risk of terror attacks).

clouddrover 7y ago
> someone else might see it as bad faith That someone else would be wrong. Your misunderstanding is your fault, not mine. Take responsibility for yourself.
- logicchains 7y ago
  How is it good faith then? Imagine the Chinese government is a person, you walk up to them and ask "what is your reason for doing this?". They start to explain "my reason is..", you stick your hands in your ears and reply "don't want to hear you, don't care, your reason is wrong, you are wrong!". That's not a productive way to engage with a point of view; it's certainly got zero chance of changing anybody's mind, all you achieve is pats on the back from people who already agree with you and the feeling of satisfaction from knowing you're morally right.
  - clouddrover 7y ago
    > * Imagine the Chinese government is a person* The Chinese government is not a person. There is no value in thinking of it as such. > you walk up to them and ask "what is your reason for doing this?". They start to explain "my reason is.." Their reasons don't matter. Only their actions matter. Only the outcomes matter. What they are doing in Xinjiang is plainly wrong. There is nothing to debate here. Their actions are dishonest and unjustified. Dressing up the immorality of what's being done in Xinjiang as a point of contention or debate is also dishonest.
    - logicchains 7y ago
      >The Chinese government is not a person. There is no value in thinking of it as such. The Chinese government is made up of people, and China is made up of people that generally support the government. >Their reasons don't matter. Only their actions matter. Only the outcomes matter. What they are doing in Xinjiang is plainly wrong. If only outcomes matter, then shouting "you're wrong!" at them isn't going to change any outcomes. You're not going to change the mind of any Chinese people who support the government by telling them "you're morally wrong!". It's long past the stage where America had enough of a military advantage to intervene militarily, so if you want to bring about change the only way to do so is engaging in dialogue with the people who support those policies. It's not possible to engage in dialogue with them if you don't understand their motivations and reasoning.
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        > if you don't understand their motivations and reasoning Their motivations and reasoning is well understood. It changes nothing. What they are doing is still wrong.
        bllguo 7y ago
        did you ask if they were wrong? or did you ask if they had a logical reason? Pretty sure it was the latter. do realize none of the people you are being so hostile to are defending these actions
        clouddrover 7y ago
        Don't be dishonest. I find talk of "good faith" so laughable when all that's offered are dishonest attempts to defend the Chinese government's deliberate effort of cultural extermination.

clouddrover 7y ago

> someone else might see it as bad faith That someone else would be wrong. Your misunderstanding is your fault, not mine. Take responsibility for yourself.

logicchains 7y ago
How is it good faith then? Imagine the Chinese government is a person, you walk up to them and ask "what is your reason for doing this?". They start to explain "my reason is..", you stick your hands in your ears and reply "don't want to hear you, don't care, your reason is wrong, you are wrong!". That's not a productive way to engage with a point of view; it's certainly got zero chance of changing anybody's mind, all you achieve is pats on the back from people who already agree with you and the feeling of satisfaction from knowing you're morally right.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  > * Imagine the Chinese government is a person* The Chinese government is not a person. There is no value in thinking of it as such. > you walk up to them and ask "what is your reason for doing this?". They start to explain "my reason is.." Their reasons don't matter. Only their actions matter. Only the outcomes matter. What they are doing in Xinjiang is plainly wrong. There is nothing to debate here. Their actions are dishonest and unjustified. Dressing up the immorality of what's being done in Xinjiang as a point of contention or debate is also dishonest.
  - logicchains 7y ago
    >The Chinese government is not a person. There is no value in thinking of it as such. The Chinese government is made up of people, and China is made up of people that generally support the government. >Their reasons don't matter. Only their actions matter. Only the outcomes matter. What they are doing in Xinjiang is plainly wrong. If only outcomes matter, then shouting "you're wrong!" at them isn't going to change any outcomes. You're not going to change the mind of any Chinese people who support the government by telling them "you're morally wrong!". It's long past the stage where America had enough of a military advantage to intervene militarily, so if you want to bring about change the only way to do so is engaging in dialogue with the people who support those policies. It's not possible to engage in dialogue with them if you don't understand their motivations and reasoning.
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      > if you don't understand their motivations and reasoning Their motivations and reasoning is well understood. It changes nothing. What they are doing is still wrong.
      - bllguo 7y ago
        did you ask if they were wrong? or did you ask if they had a logical reason? Pretty sure it was the latter. do realize none of the people you are being so hostile to are defending these actions
        clouddrover 7y ago
        Don't be dishonest. I find talk of "good faith" so laughable when all that's offered are dishonest attempts to defend the Chinese government's deliberate effort of cultural extermination.