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Europe does not have free speech. But that cocs conflict with free speech is true independent of national laws I think.

by s9w 7y ago

zaarn 7y ago
Europe has a different free speech, the definitions and laws differ. Saying "Europe has no free speech" is only correct from a very US-centric PoV. In Europe, we have learned the danger that true free speech poses.
- s9w 7y ago
  Free speech is a pretty easy and clear concept. Europe definitely does not fulfill that. Also "we" (I'm German) do not (all) like the extremely limited range of things we can say.
  - zaarn 7y ago
    Free speech in Germany is not based on the same definition as free speech in the US. The constitution and the BGB/StGB outline fairly clearly what is and isn't illegal hate speech and what is free speech. You have a right to free speech but no right to hate speech, simple as that. Here Gab is in clear violation of NetzDG and Hatespeech Laws with no Provider Privilege. (I'm also German and I recently visited a law course for a semester at my Uni, so I'm familiar with the basics) The only people that seem to really have an issue with our current hatespeech laws are the AfD fraction in the Bundestag.
    - s9w 7y ago
      I think free speech is usually seen in a non-national context in a sense of "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions". So Germany does not have that at all. "Hatespeech" on top of the "legal"/national definitions for what is sometimes also called free speech (but isn't at all) are just contraptions to censor people, usually the political opposition.
      - DanBC 7y ago
        > "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions" Does anywhere have that? The US certainly doesn't.
      - zaarn 7y ago
        If "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions" is your definition of free speech it doesn't exist. ANYWHERE. Not even in the US. All speech in all countries has restrictions. The US has slander, for example, which can certainly land you fines or jail time. Lying in certain circumstances too. >are just contraptions to censor people, usually the political opposition. Which political opposition is being censored in Germany that isn't just a reincarnation of the NPD/PEGIDA/MLPD? And please don't bring up anything that is a decision by a private entity, they can "censor" all they like and it wouldn't violate any free speech laws at all.
        s9w 7y ago
        I didn't say that ideal exists anywhere. The US certainly gets much closer than any European countries I know. Many German citizens have been raided, sued, fined, jailed or otherwise silenced because they criticized the current government, in particular the political decisions since 2015. Many people are opposed to that. And most of them are not of the group you mentioned.
        zaarn 7y ago
        I know plenty of people who critized the government for decisions around and after 2015, publicly even, and none of them were raided, sued, fined or jailed for it. Maybe these people are actually in the groups and just employ the standard tactic of claiming to be a lone wolf when asked.
        s9w 7y ago
        > I know plenty of people who critized the government for decisions around and after 2015, publicly even, and none of them were raided, sued, fined or jailed for it. That doesn't mean that these things don't happen. Just one recent example: https://www.einprozent.de/blog/meinungsfreiheit/friedlicher-protest-fuehrt-zu-hausdurchsuchung/2488 https://www.einprozent.de/blog/meinungsfreiheit/friedlicher-... or this: https://www.vice.com/de/article/8xe7jg/kuchen-tv-volksverhetzung-geldstrafe-rostocker-gericht https://www.vice.com/de/article/8xe7jg/kuchen-tv-volksverhet...
redder2 7y ago
Everyone who claims the EU has free speech does not get it. Free speech does not exist in Europe! And for those fools who claim its the same as in the US and argue with hate Speech let me quote Wikipedia for you: "The United States does not have hate speech laws, since American courts have repeatedly ruled that laws criminalizing hate speech violate the guarantee to freedom of speech contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." And this is why the US has the best laws for freedom of expression because hate speech is just a pathetic excuse to ban speech the people in power do not like. Its way to bread and gets abused all the time. That is why the EU has not free speech. You can not claim there is free speech when you at the same time ban everything that is deemed "hate speech" punishable by law!

Europe does not have free speech. But that cocs conflict with free speech is true independent of national laws I think.

by s9w 7y ago

Europe does not have free speech. But that cocs conflict with free speech is true independent of national laws I think.

Europe has a different free speech, the definitions and laws differ. Saying "Europe has no free speech" is only correct from a very US-centric PoV. In Europe, we have learned the danger that true free speech poses.

s9w 7y ago
Free speech is a pretty easy and clear concept. Europe definitely does not fulfill that. Also "we" (I'm German) do not (all) like the extremely limited range of things we can say.
- zaarn 7y ago
  Free speech in Germany is not based on the same definition as free speech in the US. The constitution and the BGB/StGB outline fairly clearly what is and isn't illegal hate speech and what is free speech. You have a right to free speech but no right to hate speech, simple as that. Here Gab is in clear violation of NetzDG and Hatespeech Laws with no Provider Privilege. (I'm also German and I recently visited a law course for a semester at my Uni, so I'm familiar with the basics) The only people that seem to really have an issue with our current hatespeech laws are the AfD fraction in the Bundestag.
  - s9w 7y ago
    I think free speech is usually seen in a non-national context in a sense of "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions". So Germany does not have that at all. "Hatespeech" on top of the "legal"/national definitions for what is sometimes also called free speech (but isn't at all) are just contraptions to censor people, usually the political opposition.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      > "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions" Does anywhere have that? The US certainly doesn't.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      If "you can say whatever you want. No exceptions" is your definition of free speech it doesn't exist. ANYWHERE. Not even in the US. All speech in all countries has restrictions. The US has slander, for example, which can certainly land you fines or jail time. Lying in certain circumstances too. >are just contraptions to censor people, usually the political opposition. Which political opposition is being censored in Germany that isn't just a reincarnation of the NPD/PEGIDA/MLPD? And please don't bring up anything that is a decision by a private entity, they can "censor" all they like and it wouldn't violate any free speech laws at all.
      - s9w 7y ago
        I didn't say that ideal exists anywhere. The US certainly gets much closer than any European countries I know. Many German citizens have been raided, sued, fined, jailed or otherwise silenced because they criticized the current government, in particular the political decisions since 2015. Many people are opposed to that. And most of them are not of the group you mentioned.
        zaarn 7y ago
        I know plenty of people who critized the government for decisions around and after 2015, publicly even, and none of them were raided, sued, fined or jailed for it. Maybe these people are actually in the groups and just employ the standard tactic of claiming to be a lone wolf when asked.
        s9w 7y ago
        > I know plenty of people who critized the government for decisions around and after 2015, publicly even, and none of them were raided, sued, fined or jailed for it. That doesn't mean that these things don't happen. Just one recent example: https://www.einprozent.de/blog/meinungsfreiheit/friedlicher-protest-fuehrt-zu-hausdurchsuchung/2488 https://www.einprozent.de/blog/meinungsfreiheit/friedlicher-... or this: https://www.vice.com/de/article/8xe7jg/kuchen-tv-volksverhetzung-geldstrafe-rostocker-gericht https://www.vice.com/de/article/8xe7jg/kuchen-tv-volksverhet...

redder2 7y ago

Everyone who claims the EU has free speech does not get it. Free speech does not exist in Europe! And for those fools who claim its the same as in the US and argue with hate Speech let me quote Wikipedia for you: "The United States does not have hate speech laws, since American courts have repeatedly ruled that laws criminalizing hate speech violate the guarantee to freedom of speech contained in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." And this is why the US has the best laws for freedom of expression because hate speech is just a pathetic excuse to ban speech the people in power do not like. Its way to bread and gets abused all the time. That is why the EU has not free speech. You can not claim there is free speech when you at the same time ban everything that is deemed "hate speech" punishable by law!