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what logical reason is there for violence and bloodshed? Democracies tend to be more stable than dictatorships because there's a relief valve for massive publi

what logical reason is there for violence and bloodshed? Democracies tend to be more stable than dictatorships because there's a relief valve for massive public dissent - ie elections. Dictatorships often meet their end suddenly, because a revolution is the only mechanism they have to change things. It's therefore better to quell a rebellion violently and cover it up later, than risk the spread of discontentment. The reason it's not being put down bloodily (as is typically the case) is because it's an issue confined to Hong Kong with a low chance of spreading. If it dud spread over the border, things would be different.

tepidandroid 7y ago
I understand the point you are trying to get at, and it definitely applies to other countries/dictatorships. Present-day China, however, actually has a very efficient mechanism (relief valve) for dealing with massive public dissent, which is their largely hierarchical governance model (township -> county -> prefecture -> province -> central government). When citizens have grievances, it's often against policies perceived to be imposed by local government officials. If the unrest becomes serious enough, many times these grievances are actually brought to the attention of the central government who then have an opportunity to step in to save the day and fire/replace all of the local officials involved (to the satisfaction of the mob). A surprising number of mass protests have been quelled peacefully in China in this way, over the years.
- pimmen 7y ago
  The problem is when the local official is clearly implementing policy from the central government, such as the case now with Lam implementing an extradition treaty with the PRC. If you replace Lam and try again, the same protests would appear again because Hong Kong’s issue is not with the Legislative Council per se, it’s about this treaty from the CCP. And, the CCP has a very hard time convincing the people of Hong Kong they won’t be prosecuted for dissenting speech after the Causeway book sellers were kidnapped. Their release valve has hit a bit of a snag here. Democracy is tried and true though, maybe they could give it a try in Hong Kong?
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    Fair point. My comment was only in response to GP's sentence about quelling protests on the Mainland. I doubt any such tactic would be effective in a highly educated and already distrustful population like that of HK.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      Yeah, to that I agree. I have a colleague from China and in her experience, moving from her smaller city (population 300 000) to Shanghai was a big eye opener for her. She was exposed to more educated people and more sources of information outside CCP control. The tactics you describe to quell protests would definitely work in her hometown and 90% of all other population centers in China. The other 10% are doing great and don’t feel like protesting the smaller issues.

tepidandroid 7y ago

I understand the point you are trying to get at, and it definitely applies to other countries/dictatorships. Present-day China, however, actually has a very efficient mechanism (relief valve) for dealing with massive public dissent, which is their largely hierarchical governance model (township -> county -> prefecture -> province -> central government). When citizens have grievances, it's often against policies perceived to be imposed by local government officials. If the unrest becomes serious enough, many times these grievances are actually brought to the attention of the central government who then have an opportunity to step in to save the day and fire/replace all of the local officials involved (to the satisfaction of the mob). A surprising number of mass protests have been quelled peacefully in China in this way, over the years.

pimmen 7y ago
The problem is when the local official is clearly implementing policy from the central government, such as the case now with Lam implementing an extradition treaty with the PRC. If you replace Lam and try again, the same protests would appear again because Hong Kong’s issue is not with the Legislative Council per se, it’s about this treaty from the CCP. And, the CCP has a very hard time convincing the people of Hong Kong they won’t be prosecuted for dissenting speech after the Causeway book sellers were kidnapped. Their release valve has hit a bit of a snag here. Democracy is tried and true though, maybe they could give it a try in Hong Kong?
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  Fair point. My comment was only in response to GP's sentence about quelling protests on the Mainland. I doubt any such tactic would be effective in a highly educated and already distrustful population like that of HK.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    Yeah, to that I agree. I have a colleague from China and in her experience, moving from her smaller city (population 300 000) to Shanghai was a big eye opener for her. She was exposed to more educated people and more sources of information outside CCP control. The tactics you describe to quell protests would definitely work in her hometown and 90% of all other population centers in China. The other 10% are doing great and don’t feel like protesting the smaller issues.