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> Australians had established Italian coffee bars and you could finally get a decent cappuccino. A fun parallel here to the classic startup story where the meg

> Australians had established Italian coffee bars and you could finally get a decent cappuccino. A fun parallel here to the classic startup story where the megacorp stagnates while ex-employees leave to create a startup that does it better and eventually beats the megacorp at its own game. Italian immigrants brought a love of coffee with them to Australia, but that's developed into a culture and standard of coffee that's better than the original, that's now being exported back. I live in Melbourne, and was surprised on first visiting Italy and France that the coffee was utterly inferior. Same with the US: There's certainly decent coffee to be found, but you have to seek it out, rather than taking it for granted as ubiquitous everywhere.

tvanantwerp 7y ago
I think I first heard the idea via Alton Brown that, if you want a really good {cuisine X}, don't go to the place famous for it. The source location, once famous, will get a bit lazy and not put in the effort like they used to. Example he gave: don't go to Buffalo for Buffalo wings. Example from my own experience: don't go to the famous Philly cheesesteak places in Philly for a good Philly cheesesteak.
- rbritton 7y ago
  I think this is absolutely correct. The cheesesteak I had at one of the allegedly original places was the worst I’ve ever had anywhere. A fast food cheesesteak is better. Similarly, Seaside is a major beach/ocean tourist destination in Oregon. It has some of the worst seafood restaurants I’ve ever been at, and I think laziness is the reason.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Tyler Cowen’s guide to finding good food in America boils down to “If there’s something about this restaurant that makes it more pleasant that isn’t about the food that’s weak evidence the food isn’t that good” If the interior decor is good, or the location is convenient or in a hip neighbourhood, or the wait staff are young and attractive, or the service is impeccable they have something going on that isn’t just about the food. If the only thing they’re selling is good food then it’s going to be good because there’s no other reason to go there.
    - ThePadawan 7y ago
      That is one of thr most poignant lessons I made growing up. I knew a few of the local and regional beers, and at one point noticed an ad for one of the larger brands. Not for a new product, just their standard lager. At that point, someone told me that clearly, they must have an inferior product to those other brands I also knew. Clearly, customers are aware of those without the need for advertising. So they must be a good product.
  - propter_hoc 7y ago
    Well, this is true that the known tourist destinations can rest on their laurels and provide mediocre fare, and I agree that Pat's and Geno's in Philly are in this camp. However, in a city where everyone eats cheesesteaks, you will also find some fantastic cheesesteaks like Jim's, which are probably as good or better than cheesesteaks anywhere else in the world. If I were in Japan, I wouldn't necessarily expect that the best sushi is at the most known tourist destinations, but I would expect that the overall quality of sushi is better than in any other country.
newsbinator 7y ago
Personally, I've never had better coffee than in Malaysia
acover 7y ago
What makes good coffee?
- manicdee 7y ago
  The essentials of good coffee are a pleasant flavour profile served at the right temperature. The flavour profile will be changed by bean selection, roasting, grind coarseness and pressure, the “dose” (volume of ground coffee placed in the portafilter), the compaction of the dose into the portafilter, the temperature/pressure/duration of the steam used to espress the coffee, and even the temperature of the cup the coffee is prepared in. That is before considering the treatment of the milk (or substitute) during the preparation of the coffee: warmed correctly and foamed just right, that milk will taste completely different to plain milk straight out of the fridge. All along this process are the essential flavours from the coffee bean that are selectively enhanced or suppressed. The variables are so numerous that you can take the same roast beans to two neighbouring cafeterias using the same tap water and the same espresso machines, and the baristas will produce completely different coffees. Baristas are important to a cafe, to the point that I would say the one key ingredient to a good coffee is finding the right barista.
- cm2012 7y ago
  Time since roast date and grind quality, mostly.
whistlerbrk 7y ago
A great flat white, an Australian invention I understand, is shockingly good compared to a standard cappuccino. When done properly you wouldn't even question the need for sweetener because the milk becomes so decadent.
- foldingmoney 7y ago
  Named in Australia but invented in New Zealand, and yes, the best way to serve coffee with milk.
Bayart 7y ago
>I live in Melbourne, and was surprised on first visiting Italy and France that the coffee was utterly inferior. Well, I lived in Australia ten years ago and I had the reverse experience. While I genuinely enjoyed the country and would gladly come back to visit, the arcane sugary cocktails Australians call coffee had me more annoyed than charmed. How hard is it to just make a fucking espresso and charge what it's worth ? What Australia has for itself though is stellar Asian restaurants. Great Japanese and Korean places are absolutely everywhere, the average quality is far above anywhere in Europe.
- abrookewood 7y ago
  I've never had nor seen a sugary coffee cocktail outside of a nightclub. Where were you drinking? Starbucks?
- unixhero 7y ago
  Because you didn't go to a proper coffee house then and you didn't ask for an espresso in the Australian way: "G'day! double short black, thanks mate"
- foldingmoney 7y ago
  I don't know what you're ordering, but good/excellent quality espresso is readily available throughout Australia and New Zealand.
  - peatmoss 7y ago
    That was my experience as well. When I moved from Auckland to Seattle, I found isolated pockets of better espresso, but I had to work to find the gems that were better than the average in NZ.
    - foldingmoney 7y ago
      If you're ever back in Auckland, pay a visit to Coffee Lab's cafe in Wairau Valley. Very unassuming looking place in an industrial district but absolutely amazing coffee.
throwaway9d0291 7y ago
I was surprised by that when I left Australia as well. That's when I found out that Melbourne is pretty consistently rated among the best coffee cities in the world. It's actually so good in Australia as a whole that Startbucks found itself utterly unsuccessful and had to shut down most of its stores (and really, having had Starbucks I can absolutely see why, that stuff is foul compared to what you'll get from the average Melbournian coffee shop). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out much about why the coffee is so much better, other than a general overview about immigration from Greece and Italy and the fact that those immigrants brought espresso with them instead of drip coffee that's common elsewhere. Does anyone have a better reference for Australia's coffee history?

tvanantwerp 7y ago

I think I first heard the idea via Alton Brown that, if you want a really good {cuisine X}, don't go to the place famous for it. The source location, once famous, will get a bit lazy and not put in the effort like they used to. Example he gave: don't go to Buffalo for Buffalo wings. Example from my own experience: don't go to the famous Philly cheesesteak places in Philly for a good Philly cheesesteak.

rbritton 7y ago
I think this is absolutely correct. The cheesesteak I had at one of the allegedly original places was the worst I’ve ever had anywhere. A fast food cheesesteak is better. Similarly, Seaside is a major beach/ocean tourist destination in Oregon. It has some of the worst seafood restaurants I’ve ever been at, and I think laziness is the reason.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Tyler Cowen’s guide to finding good food in America boils down to “If there’s something about this restaurant that makes it more pleasant that isn’t about the food that’s weak evidence the food isn’t that good” If the interior decor is good, or the location is convenient or in a hip neighbourhood, or the wait staff are young and attractive, or the service is impeccable they have something going on that isn’t just about the food. If the only thing they’re selling is good food then it’s going to be good because there’s no other reason to go there.
  - ThePadawan 7y ago
    That is one of thr most poignant lessons I made growing up. I knew a few of the local and regional beers, and at one point noticed an ad for one of the larger brands. Not for a new product, just their standard lager. At that point, someone told me that clearly, they must have an inferior product to those other brands I also knew. Clearly, customers are aware of those without the need for advertising. So they must be a good product.
- propter_hoc 7y ago
  Well, this is true that the known tourist destinations can rest on their laurels and provide mediocre fare, and I agree that Pat's and Geno's in Philly are in this camp. However, in a city where everyone eats cheesesteaks, you will also find some fantastic cheesesteaks like Jim's, which are probably as good or better than cheesesteaks anywhere else in the world. If I were in Japan, I wouldn't necessarily expect that the best sushi is at the most known tourist destinations, but I would expect that the overall quality of sushi is better than in any other country.

newsbinator 7y ago

Personally, I've never had better coffee than in Malaysia

acover 7y ago

What makes good coffee?

manicdee 7y ago
The essentials of good coffee are a pleasant flavour profile served at the right temperature. The flavour profile will be changed by bean selection, roasting, grind coarseness and pressure, the “dose” (volume of ground coffee placed in the portafilter), the compaction of the dose into the portafilter, the temperature/pressure/duration of the steam used to espress the coffee, and even the temperature of the cup the coffee is prepared in. That is before considering the treatment of the milk (or substitute) during the preparation of the coffee: warmed correctly and foamed just right, that milk will taste completely different to plain milk straight out of the fridge. All along this process are the essential flavours from the coffee bean that are selectively enhanced or suppressed. The variables are so numerous that you can take the same roast beans to two neighbouring cafeterias using the same tap water and the same espresso machines, and the baristas will produce completely different coffees. Baristas are important to a cafe, to the point that I would say the one key ingredient to a good coffee is finding the right barista.
cm2012 7y ago
Time since roast date and grind quality, mostly.

whistlerbrk 7y ago

A great flat white, an Australian invention I understand, is shockingly good compared to a standard cappuccino. When done properly you wouldn't even question the need for sweetener because the milk becomes so decadent.

foldingmoney 7y ago
Named in Australia but invented in New Zealand, and yes, the best way to serve coffee with milk.

Bayart 7y ago

>I live in Melbourne, and was surprised on first visiting Italy and France that the coffee was utterly inferior. Well, I lived in Australia ten years ago and I had the reverse experience. While I genuinely enjoyed the country and would gladly come back to visit, the arcane sugary cocktails Australians call coffee had me more annoyed than charmed. How hard is it to just make a fucking espresso and charge what it's worth ? What Australia has for itself though is stellar Asian restaurants. Great Japanese and Korean places are absolutely everywhere, the average quality is far above anywhere in Europe.

abrookewood 7y ago
I've never had nor seen a sugary coffee cocktail outside of a nightclub. Where were you drinking? Starbucks?
unixhero 7y ago
Because you didn't go to a proper coffee house then and you didn't ask for an espresso in the Australian way: "G'day! double short black, thanks mate"
foldingmoney 7y ago
I don't know what you're ordering, but good/excellent quality espresso is readily available throughout Australia and New Zealand.
- peatmoss 7y ago
  That was my experience as well. When I moved from Auckland to Seattle, I found isolated pockets of better espresso, but I had to work to find the gems that were better than the average in NZ.
  - foldingmoney 7y ago
    If you're ever back in Auckland, pay a visit to Coffee Lab's cafe in Wairau Valley. Very unassuming looking place in an industrial district but absolutely amazing coffee.

throwaway9d0291 7y ago

I was surprised by that when I left Australia as well. That's when I found out that Melbourne is pretty consistently rated among the best coffee cities in the world. It's actually so good in Australia as a whole that Startbucks found itself utterly unsuccessful and had to shut down most of its stores (and really, having had Starbucks I can absolutely see why, that stuff is foul compared to what you'll get from the average Melbournian coffee shop). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out much about why the coffee is so much better, other than a general overview about immigration from Greece and Italy and the fact that those immigrants brought espresso with them instead of drip coffee that's common elsewhere. Does anyone have a better reference for Australia's coffee history?