4 ms·

Was the controversy really about the need for the feature? I thought most people agreed it was a great feature to have, and most of the arguments were about `:=

Was the controversy really about the need for the feature? I thought most people agreed it was a great feature to have, and most of the arguments were about `:=` vs re-using `as` for the operator.

linsomniac 7y ago
I don't know in this case, but I do know that the Python community tends to have strong opinions about things. The := resulted in Guido stepping down, which I think is a good indicator that there wasn't agreement that it was "a great feature to have" and just down to syntax... :-(
- dual_basis 7y ago
  To be fair, Guido stepped down because of the way the community reacted. "The straw that broke the camel’s back was a very contentious Python enhancement proposal, where after I had accepted it, people went to social media like Twitter and said things that really hurt me personally. And some of the people who said hurtful things were actually core Python developers, so I felt that I didn’t quite have the trust of the Python core developer team anymore." Source: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3292936/guido-van-rossum-resigns-whats-next-for-python.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3292936/guido-van-rossum-r... Note that Guido also was in support of the walrus operator, it's not like he stepped down because he disagreed with it.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    It's really disappointing that people could get so worked up, over what is essentially deciding which color to paint the shed, that they chase off the project founder. I wonder if there is any way for open source communities to effectively promote the "take a step back and remember what really matters in life" approach to conflict resolution.
    - toyg 7y ago
      Guido wasn't chased off, he is still in the core group. He just isn't BDFL anymore -- which, from a certain point of view, might be the best of both worlds. As a long-time python user and small-time advocate, I felt the walrus was a really bad decision.
    - Aozi 7y ago
      >I wonder if there is any way for open source communities to effectively promote the "take a step back and remember what really matters in life" approach to conflict resolution. We've spent decades debating on the merits of spaces vs tabs, and Vim vs Emacs, and a ton of other completely pointless stuff. What you're hoping is just a pipe dream, people will get invested in the most petty and asinine stuff out there, and take it as a personal insult if you disagree.
kbd 7y ago
All discussion I've ever seen was about the need for the feature, not its spelling. I didn't even know "as" was proposed, but in fact it is an "alternate spelling" they considered[1] in the PEP. [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#alternative-spellings https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#alternative-spelli...
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  The idea was accepted quickly, the rest of the debate was on its spelling and scope.
pmart123 7y ago
I like "as" instead. I didn't realize that was on the table. To me, it seems more Pythonic given the typical English-like Python syntax of "with open(path) as file", "for element in items if element not in things", etc.
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  It had some drawbacks, which a great majority of the time won't apply. I too would have preferred an "as" clause that limited to if-statements, maybe while, and comprehensions.
- Noumenon72 7y ago
  "if m as re.match(p1, line)" is not very English-like.
  - carver 7y ago
    `if re.match(p1, line) as m`, maybe?
    - collinmanderson 7y ago
      Yes, this is what I would expect. Much like a with statement.
  - clinta 7y ago
    Because the variable goes after the as. if re.match(p1, line) as m:

Was the controversy really about the need for the feature? I thought most people agreed it was a great feature to have, and most of the arguments were about `:=` vs re-using `as` for the operator.

linsomniac 7y ago

I don't know in this case, but I do know that the Python community tends to have strong opinions about things. The := resulted in Guido stepping down, which I think is a good indicator that there wasn't agreement that it was "a great feature to have" and just down to syntax... :-(

dual_basis 7y ago
To be fair, Guido stepped down because of the way the community reacted. "The straw that broke the camel’s back was a very contentious Python enhancement proposal, where after I had accepted it, people went to social media like Twitter and said things that really hurt me personally. And some of the people who said hurtful things were actually core Python developers, so I felt that I didn’t quite have the trust of the Python core developer team anymore." Source: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3292936/guido-van-rossum-resigns-whats-next-for-python.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3292936/guido-van-rossum-r... Note that Guido also was in support of the walrus operator, it's not like he stepped down because he disagreed with it.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  It's really disappointing that people could get so worked up, over what is essentially deciding which color to paint the shed, that they chase off the project founder. I wonder if there is any way for open source communities to effectively promote the "take a step back and remember what really matters in life" approach to conflict resolution.
  - toyg 7y ago
    Guido wasn't chased off, he is still in the core group. He just isn't BDFL anymore -- which, from a certain point of view, might be the best of both worlds. As a long-time python user and small-time advocate, I felt the walrus was a really bad decision.
  - Aozi 7y ago
    >I wonder if there is any way for open source communities to effectively promote the "take a step back and remember what really matters in life" approach to conflict resolution. We've spent decades debating on the merits of spaces vs tabs, and Vim vs Emacs, and a ton of other completely pointless stuff. What you're hoping is just a pipe dream, people will get invested in the most petty and asinine stuff out there, and take it as a personal insult if you disagree.

kbd 7y ago

All discussion I've ever seen was about the need for the feature, not its spelling. I didn't even know "as" was proposed, but in fact it is an "alternate spelling" they considered[1] in the PEP. [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#alternative-spellings https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0572/#alternative-spelli...

mixmastamyk 7y ago
The idea was accepted quickly, the rest of the debate was on its spelling and scope.

pmart123 7y ago

I like "as" instead. I didn't realize that was on the table. To me, it seems more Pythonic given the typical English-like Python syntax of "with open(path) as file", "for element in items if element not in things", etc.

mixmastamyk 7y ago
It had some drawbacks, which a great majority of the time won't apply. I too would have preferred an "as" clause that limited to if-statements, maybe while, and comprehensions.
Noumenon72 7y ago
"if m as re.match(p1, line)" is not very English-like.
- carver 7y ago
  `if re.match(p1, line) as m`, maybe?
  - collinmanderson 7y ago
    Yes, this is what I would expect. Much like a with statement.
- clinta 7y ago
  Because the variable goes after the as. if re.match(p1, line) as m: