4 ms·

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppres

This is a weak argument. The base response to a repressive totalitarian regime is non-cooperation, not support them and hope they will be marginally less oppressive. Any support legitimizes their actions and further entrenches their oppression

__sy__ 7y ago
Yes and yes again. This is so key for people to understand. And this is why google should have never touched this fucking project in the first place. Many continue to push this logic that somehow we should continue to engage with the PRC. I’ve spent a decent amount of time in China, have relatives there...etc, and I’m convinced that this approach is 100% FLAWED. The CCP derives its authority from economic growth--next year will be better than this year, so don't challenge us. At this point in their development, for this growth to continue, it now requires science/tech innovation (see “middle income trap” theory / many of my acquaintances have moved factories elsewhere due to cost in PRC). Any work we do with them in those are areas only make the oppression problem worse, both for Chinese people and for us now/eventually (e.g. Hollywood will never criticize China; not the same with Russia). EDITS: typo
- gdy 7y ago
  "The CCP derives its authority from economic growth" Why is it a bad thing?
  - gurkendoktor 7y ago
    That's not a bad thing, but it means that you can't help the economy without helping the party. It's either both or neither.
    - gdy 7y ago
      But if a party policies help economy grow, why is it bad to help party?
      - TearsInTheRain 7y ago
        I mean if you really dont know, China is an incredibly oppressive totalitarian regime that maintains their power through violence and censorship. Political opponents are routinely disappeared and murdered
        gdy 7y ago
        Why do you call it "incredibly oppressive"? It's nothing like Mao's China or Stalin's USSR or Pol Pot's Cambodia or Hitler's Germany. Saudi Arabia comes to mind with their executions of political opponents and whatnot. If you really don't know, CCP's regime through economic growth has lifted from extreme poverty over 700 million people [0]. It's the same economic growth HN's well-wishers are lamenting about. Extreme poverty is not inability to buy the latest iPhone, it's malnutrition, lack of medical care, hard work, illnesses and likely early death. You care about people who, you say, disappeared because of CCP's regime and at the same time absolutely don't care about hundreds of millions, most of whom would've still been suffering from extreme poverty and accompanying excessive mortality. The statistics of democratic India are lagging behind by very big margin and give an estimation of what could've been China's alternative reality [1]. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/peoples-daily-online/opinion/poverty-reduction/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/peoples-daily-online/opinion/pov... [1] https://qz.com/india/1385642/after-china-india-pulled-most-people-out-of-poverty-since-1990/ https://qz.com/india/1385642/after-china-india-pulled-most-p...
        __sy__ 7y ago
        I wish people would stop arguing that democracy and lifting millions out of poverty are mutually exclusive. They're not. Taiwan. South Korea. Japan. Though the first 2 were fairly authoritarian in the 1950s, they all progressively marched toward democracy. CCP is taking China the other way. Meanwhile India, which is the CCP's favorite parrot for justifying their means, actually has lifted out of abject poverty just about as many people as the CCP.
        gdy 7y ago
chocolatebunny 7y ago
Isn't that the kind of policy that creates places like North Korea? And we're already heavily tied to china's economy why would forcing just one company to not cooperate help deligitimize their government?
- friedman23 7y ago
  US government policy didn't create North Korea. In fact the Chinese government had a huge hand in that.
khc 7y ago
How has that worked out for Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? Or Afghanistan, Iraq until we invaded them?

__sy__ 7y ago

Yes and yes again. This is so key for people to understand. And this is why google should have never touched this fucking project in the first place. Many continue to push this logic that somehow we should continue to engage with the PRC. I’ve spent a decent amount of time in China, have relatives there...etc, and I’m convinced that this approach is 100% FLAWED. The CCP derives its authority from economic growth--next year will be better than this year, so don't challenge us. At this point in their development, for this growth to continue, it now requires science/tech innovation (see “middle income trap” theory / many of my acquaintances have moved factories elsewhere due to cost in PRC). Any work we do with them in those are areas only make the oppression problem worse, both for Chinese people and for us now/eventually (e.g. Hollywood will never criticize China; not the same with Russia). EDITS: typo

gdy 7y ago
"The CCP derives its authority from economic growth" Why is it a bad thing?
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  That's not a bad thing, but it means that you can't help the economy without helping the party. It's either both or neither.
  - gdy 7y ago
    But if a party policies help economy grow, why is it bad to help party?
    - TearsInTheRain 7y ago
      I mean if you really dont know, China is an incredibly oppressive totalitarian regime that maintains their power through violence and censorship. Political opponents are routinely disappeared and murdered
      - gdy 7y ago
        Why do you call it "incredibly oppressive"? It's nothing like Mao's China or Stalin's USSR or Pol Pot's Cambodia or Hitler's Germany. Saudi Arabia comes to mind with their executions of political opponents and whatnot. If you really don't know, CCP's regime through economic growth has lifted from extreme poverty over 700 million people [0]. It's the same economic growth HN's well-wishers are lamenting about. Extreme poverty is not inability to buy the latest iPhone, it's malnutrition, lack of medical care, hard work, illnesses and likely early death. You care about people who, you say, disappeared because of CCP's regime and at the same time absolutely don't care about hundreds of millions, most of whom would've still been suffering from extreme poverty and accompanying excessive mortality. The statistics of democratic India are lagging behind by very big margin and give an estimation of what could've been China's alternative reality [1]. [0] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/peoples-daily-online/opinion/poverty-reduction/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/peoples-daily-online/opinion/pov... [1] https://qz.com/india/1385642/after-china-india-pulled-most-people-out-of-poverty-since-1990/ https://qz.com/india/1385642/after-china-india-pulled-most-p...
        __sy__ 7y ago
        I wish people would stop arguing that democracy and lifting millions out of poverty are mutually exclusive. They're not. Taiwan. South Korea. Japan. Though the first 2 were fairly authoritarian in the 1950s, they all progressively marched toward democracy. CCP is taking China the other way. Meanwhile India, which is the CCP's favorite parrot for justifying their means, actually has lifted out of abject poverty just about as many people as the CCP.
        gdy 7y ago

chocolatebunny 7y ago

Isn't that the kind of policy that creates places like North Korea? And we're already heavily tied to china's economy why would forcing just one company to not cooperate help deligitimize their government?

friedman23 7y ago
US government policy didn't create North Korea. In fact the Chinese government had a huge hand in that.

khc 7y ago

How has that worked out for Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? Or Afghanistan, Iraq until we invaded them?