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Java... Are you kidding. The UI stack and distribution model is horrible compared to WebAssembly. The resources available for HTML/CSS cannot be compared with

by oaiey 7y ago

Java... Are you kidding. The UI stack and distribution model is horrible compared to WebAssembly. The resources available for HTML/CSS cannot be compared with JavaFX, Swing or whatever the other original stack was. And the Applets sandboxing was obviously so horrible everyone killed it. WA is amazing here copying the existing and already hardened JavaScript model.

pron 7y ago
But in that case we already have all that with Electron. Unless you want to program in C/C++ or Rust, compiling your language to JS would probably result in an image that's both smaller (because you won't need to bring your own GC) and faster (because you'll be enjoying JS's JIT) than WASM. JS is a better compilation target (you don't have to use JS directly) than WASM for the vast majority of languages. WASM is great for when you have a bit of code you'd like to write in C and use as a library from JS (or a language compiled to JS).
- oaiey 7y ago
  Yeah valid point. I am quite comfortable with HTML but only tolerate JS with heavy use of TypeScript. For me C# and Blazor sound quite cool. The size is my biggest concern as well.
pjmlp 7y ago
What a joke, where are the visual designers for HTML/CSS, with automatic binding generation for database backends? Layout engines with customization capabilities? Where is the hardware accelerated drawings that I can be fully sure it is hardware accelerated without doing tricks with z index and hoping for the best regarding mapping css drawings into textures?
- tatersolid 7y ago
  > What a joke, where are the visual designers for HTML/CSS, with automatic binding generation for database backends? Did you ever actually use a PowerBuilder (or similar RAD tool) application? The experience was horrible, slow, and basically a waste of titanic amounts of money. I once saw half an accounting department quit after a switch to a RAD financials package. There’s a reason all those 1990-2005 era vertical-market app companies got bought by PE firms and are just basically dead except for milking maintenance revenue. Building “data-model centric” apps with RAD tools optimizes for ease of the developer instead of the end user. Which is exactly backwards.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Yes, for Delphi, C++ Builder, Forms, WPF/UWP, QML, iOS, Android, Symbian. Parallel to that I have been doing Web projects since 2000 as well. HTML 5 / CSS 3 has nothing that compares, that is why Flash took off and is coming back in the form of WebAssembly, now with everyone racing to support it with their favourite runtime + WebGL.
    - tatersolid 7y ago
      I think you misunderstood. I get that you built apps using the various RAD frameworks, but did you actually use one as part of your daily job?
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        I fail to see the point. Either the developers are able to use the tooling at their disposal to deliver awesome products or not. Skype was originally coded in Delphi, so yeah.
        tatersolid 7y ago
        If you think Skype’s user experience was ever in any way “good”... what do you consider “bad”?
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yes, Skype UX was great before MS acquisition and rewrite into React Native. Anything written with Electron is pretty much bad. I only put up with Slack and VSCode due to job requirements.
      - FpUser 7y ago
        I have used many. PowerBuilder is absolutely atrocious. Delphi is brilliant and there is a whole range in between. I do not mind creating GUI in code either for applications that work with GPU but would still prefer Delphi like environment,

by oaiey 7y ago

pron 7y ago

But in that case we already have all that with Electron. Unless you want to program in C/C++ or Rust, compiling your language to JS would probably result in an image that's both smaller (because you won't need to bring your own GC) and faster (because you'll be enjoying JS's JIT) than WASM. JS is a better compilation target (you don't have to use JS directly) than WASM for the vast majority of languages. WASM is great for when you have a bit of code you'd like to write in C and use as a library from JS (or a language compiled to JS).

oaiey 7y ago
Yeah valid point. I am quite comfortable with HTML but only tolerate JS with heavy use of TypeScript. For me C# and Blazor sound quite cool. The size is my biggest concern as well.

pjmlp 7y ago

What a joke, where are the visual designers for HTML/CSS, with automatic binding generation for database backends? Layout engines with customization capabilities? Where is the hardware accelerated drawings that I can be fully sure it is hardware accelerated without doing tricks with z index and hoping for the best regarding mapping css drawings into textures?

tatersolid 7y ago
> What a joke, where are the visual designers for HTML/CSS, with automatic binding generation for database backends? Did you ever actually use a PowerBuilder (or similar RAD tool) application? The experience was horrible, slow, and basically a waste of titanic amounts of money. I once saw half an accounting department quit after a switch to a RAD financials package. There’s a reason all those 1990-2005 era vertical-market app companies got bought by PE firms and are just basically dead except for milking maintenance revenue. Building “data-model centric” apps with RAD tools optimizes for ease of the developer instead of the end user. Which is exactly backwards.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Yes, for Delphi, C++ Builder, Forms, WPF/UWP, QML, iOS, Android, Symbian. Parallel to that I have been doing Web projects since 2000 as well. HTML 5 / CSS 3 has nothing that compares, that is why Flash took off and is coming back in the form of WebAssembly, now with everyone racing to support it with their favourite runtime + WebGL.
  - tatersolid 7y ago
    I think you misunderstood. I get that you built apps using the various RAD frameworks, but did you actually use one as part of your daily job?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      I fail to see the point. Either the developers are able to use the tooling at their disposal to deliver awesome products or not. Skype was originally coded in Delphi, so yeah.
      - tatersolid 7y ago
        If you think Skype’s user experience was ever in any way “good”... what do you consider “bad”?
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yes, Skype UX was great before MS acquisition and rewrite into React Native. Anything written with Electron is pretty much bad. I only put up with Slack and VSCode due to job requirements.
    - FpUser 7y ago
      I have used many. PowerBuilder is absolutely atrocious. Delphi is brilliant and there is a whole range in between. I do not mind creating GUI in code either for applications that work with GPU but would still prefer Delphi like environment,