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> and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". I don't really know what to say here beca

> and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. > Why does this thing suck? Oh, it's because normal users won't understand X or only want Y, unlike special snowflake power users. We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. (Unlike a lot of Linux desktop developers and supposed evangelists, who you see using macOS instead of Linux and just developing inside VMs, which might be the source of why Linux is so terrible in this regard.)

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. > We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. Sure, and I'm saying that a system need not put a wall between the two. One side that understands "how it really works" and another that is presented with a facade and expected never to look behind the curtain. A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler.
- waddlesplash 7y ago
  > So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. That is not true in theory or in practice except for a very, very small number of people. Maybe if you use the "Linux on Chromebook", but then it's more than a "Chromebook" is typically understood to be... > Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. What "this" are you referring to here? I think 99.999% of people that use computers are more than happy with the fact they no longer boot into BASIC, and would dislike them doing so again, and this includes 99.9% of programmers, I'd say. > A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. There isn't a "wall". You can go as deep or as shallow as you like; and there are plenty of middle grounds, too, in Haiku. So we definitely adhere to this part of your philosophy. > The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler. And we definitely agree with that, for the first two or three standard deviations. But way out in the long tail? Yeah, you are going to need the compiler.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > That is not true in theory or in practice except for a very, very small number of people. Maybe if you use the "Linux on Chromebook", but then it's more than a "Chromebook" is typically understood to be... What do you mean? Your strawman user just needs email, a webbrowser, etc. That's all perfectly well served by a Chromebook. > I think 99.999% of people that use computers are more than happy with the fact they no longer boot into BASIC, and would dislike them doing so again, and this includes 99.9% of programmers, I'd say. Yeah, see, this is not-getting-it. It isn't about booting in to BASIC, it's about recognizing that the Computer is a tool to make the user's life better, and part of that role is making sense and guiding the user towards leveraging it better. > There isn't a "wall". There is an abrupt incongruity in the metaphor for how applications work. They appear to be files in some location (/system/Applications?) but are actually not. The user sees that /system/Applications/MyHaikuApp is a file and thinks "oh, I can just treat that as a file", but then discovers it isn't true. They were lied to. It's an illusion. > But way out in the long tail? Yeah, you are going to need the compiler. No disagreement here, but consider your solution to me wanting to use hpkgs from a different partition.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

> I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. > We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. Sure, and I'm saying that a system need not put a wall between the two. One side that understands "how it really works" and another that is presented with a facade and expected never to look behind the curtain. A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler.

waddlesplash 7y ago
> So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. That is not true in theory or in practice except for a very, very small number of people. Maybe if you use the "Linux on Chromebook", but then it's more than a "Chromebook" is typically understood to be... > Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. What "this" are you referring to here? I think 99.999% of people that use computers are more than happy with the fact they no longer boot into BASIC, and would dislike them doing so again, and this includes 99.9% of programmers, I'd say. > A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. There isn't a "wall". You can go as deep or as shallow as you like; and there are plenty of middle grounds, too, in Haiku. So we definitely adhere to this part of your philosophy. > The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler. And we definitely agree with that, for the first two or three standard deviations. But way out in the long tail? Yeah, you are going to need the compiler.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > That is not true in theory or in practice except for a very, very small number of people. Maybe if you use the "Linux on Chromebook", but then it's more than a "Chromebook" is typically understood to be... What do you mean? Your strawman user just needs email, a webbrowser, etc. That's all perfectly well served by a Chromebook. > I think 99.999% of people that use computers are more than happy with the fact they no longer boot into BASIC, and would dislike them doing so again, and this includes 99.9% of programmers, I'd say. Yeah, see, this is not-getting-it. It isn't about booting in to BASIC, it's about recognizing that the Computer is a tool to make the user's life better, and part of that role is making sense and guiding the user towards leveraging it better. > There isn't a "wall". There is an abrupt incongruity in the metaphor for how applications work. They appear to be files in some location (/system/Applications?) but are actually not. The user sees that /system/Applications/MyHaikuApp is a file and thinks "oh, I can just treat that as a file", but then discovers it isn't true. They were lied to. It's an illusion. > But way out in the long tail? Yeah, you are going to need the compiler. No disagreement here, but consider your solution to me wanting to use hpkgs from a different partition.