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You know Indians aren't just coming from consulting companies right? They are individuals. Is it fair that the children of Indians who have grown up in the US h

You know Indians aren't just coming from consulting companies right? They are individuals. Is it fair that the children of Indians who have grown up in the US have to self deport because other nationalities think it's better to subject indians to decades long uncertainty rather than not considering race or national origin (which would equalize wait times to 5-6 years)? Btw pretty much NO other country in the world has national origin quotas. Are you saying that racially discriminatory provisions put in place to satisfy southern segregationists that no other country follows are fair??

manas666 7y ago
I was talking about big picture. Majority of H1-B are taken by nationals of one country. It cannot be one way street to benefit one country nationals only in H1-B and GC. I agree that the system is completely broken, but the harm to the system is contained within H1-B system only. Thanks to the country limit, the GC immigration system is not broken yet for all other nationals. If America wants diversity in immigration, then the country limit is doing its work perfectly as was designed. I dont agree with you that "US system is subjecting indians" - this is manipulation. You failed to mention that fact that there is entire industry of bringing Indian engineers into US from Hyderabad (and cities like that) via student visas, H1-B, and then GC. It is this system that is flooding the immigration with H1-B and then GCs that put family immigration and other category GCs in a very long backlog
- damnyou 7y ago
  As a society we decided a long time ago that blanket punishments based on country of origin are immoral.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Err no - society and states are quite happy with economic and other pressure being applied and effecting a population.
    - damnyou 7y ago
      Yes, states do all sorts of awful immoral things. But blanket punishments go against the post-war consensus regarding fundamental human rights. Not comparing the backlogs to Japanese internment, but if you look up the history of immigration law you'll realize that the country limits in the 1965 law always had racist intent.
      - deogeo 7y ago
        You mean this 1965 law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac... ? While it was sold to the American people as not affecting demographics ("Secretary of State Dean Rusk and other politicians, including Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), asserted that the bill would not affect the U.S. demographic mix."), this turned out to be extremely false, as pretty much any demographic chart will show.
        damnyou 7y ago
        Yes, that's what I mean by racist intent. Turned out some of the actions done with racist intent (focus on family-based immigration) backfired, while others (per-country limits) worked out perfectly.
        deogeo 7y ago
        But the law was passed specifically because the previous law was viewed as racist: "the National Origins Formula increasingly came under attack for being racially discriminatory. With the support of the Johnson administration, Senator Philip Hart and Congressman Emanuel Celler introduced a bill to repeal the formula."
        damnyou 7y ago
        It's very common for racism to be replaced by slightly less terrible racism! The most obvious example is how slavery was replaced by Jim Crow laws, segregation, and later the prison system.
- belltaco 7y ago
  >If America wants diversity in immigration, then the country limit is doing its work perfectly as was designed. No, it's not. The H1Bs that the bill benefits are already in the US and have been living there for several years. The lack of a green card is stopping them from switching jobs, which lowers their salaries which hurts the job market. It also stops them from starting up their own companies and creating jobs for everyone. >You failed to mention that fact that there is entire industry of bringing Indian engineers into US from Hyderabad (and cities like that) via student visas, H1-B, and then GC. It is this system that is flooding the immigration with H1-B Body shops and US companies prefer Indians instead of other nationalities because they would be stuck in the backlog which makes it really hard for them to switch jobs, so they can be paid less while reducing turnover costs. This bill will equalize things so people from other nations will be on a level playing field.
  - manas666 7y ago
    that's the problem of broken H1-B system that indians abused for a very long time and enjoyed the benefits of getting tens of thousands H1-B eveyr year. Now are paying for it by being in a queue. H1-B is a temporary visa for 3 years, and was designed as such. This is not a guaranteed GC, so let's talk about who is abusing the system from working as intended, rather than lifting systemic barriers that will hurt everybody (including american citizens that will lose their jobs really fast)
    - belltaco 7y ago
      >rather than lifting systemic barriers that will hurt everybody (including american citizens that will lose their jobs really fast) The bill does not add one new green card or one new H1B visa so I have no idea of what people like you keep talking about. Looks like the fake news and propaganda has won. I give up. >Now are paying for it by being in a queue. Yea lets punish rural doctors for being born in India. https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doctors-green-card-backlog/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct...
    - thrill 7y ago
      Indians did not abuse it if the law allowed their entry. There is no such thing as "working as intended" when it comes to law - there is (non)compliance. Congress's intent is fully specified when the law is written. Any wiggle room is due to Congress's inability to be precise, and occasionally interpreted by the Court when some specific law becomes a big enough issue to a complaining party that it's worth their effort to take it that far.
blunte 7y ago
It's not easy for American citizens to get permanent work/live visas in most other countries either. And it is often in the interest of each country to prevent an influx of additional (lower wage) workers in trades that already have enough workers. A parallel can be seen of how Walmart entered rural and small town America years ago and killed many local businesses. It also lowered local wages, because the primary job became Walmart Checker. If you are a country of 330 million people, and you do not put limits on countries 5X larger, then you will find your citizens less employed and lower income. This is not racist, nationalist, or any other label. I suppose you could label it "localist", whereby you favor local resources over remote ones. The excuse used by tech companies starting around 2000 was that there were not enough talented local workers, so importing cheaper (and often lower skilled) workers was the answer. That's not to imply that all foreign labor is lower skilled. However, displacing local workers with foreign workers without some quality control, especially where the pay is lower, will result in an accumulation of lower skilled workers.
- manas666 7y ago
  Agree, every day companies merge and reduce their workforce and who's getting axed first? Expensive american workforce. Pretty soon they are replaced by foreign nationals either onshore or offshore using "workforce augmentation" companies that are consultancies Let's talk about the entire picture, if we want to discuss immigration "fairness"
- nraynaud 7y ago
  my wife will have permanent resident visa for France in just a few weeks. It took me 7 months to get a k1 visa then 1.5 years to get a green card. "localist" -> you're looking for "xenophobic".
  - blunte 7y ago
    Nope. Having an affinity for people you live near does not imply that you dislike others. It may be true for some people, but it is not a logical truth. Isn't a K1 visa related to marriage? That's nice for people who happen to be marrying a national, but that doesn't apply to most people.
deogeo 7y ago
> racially discriminatory provisions put in place to satisfy southern segregationists The vast majority of green cards go to majority-non-white countries - the chart at the bottom of https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/06/more-than-half-of-new-green-cards-go-to-people-already-living-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/06/more-than-h... shows the country of origin breakdown.
- wolco 7y ago
  Non white countries have white populations. How many whites vs blacks get visas in South African historically?
  - deogeo 7y ago
    If you have statistics showing that US green cards are mostly awarded to whites, despite going to mostly non-white-countries, please share them. It would certainly go against the general trend of US immigration, which is predominantly non-white, and has been since 1965.
- belltaco 7y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong but those numbers are not for work green cards.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    I'm honestly not sure. Until now, I had no idea that was a special type of green card. The second-to-last chart in that article mentions employment as an admission category, so maybe? Better sources are welcome. In either case, pretty much every source I'm aware of shows immigration to the US as predominantly non-white, so I'd like to see the claim that it appeases southern segregationists backed up by some evidence.
    - belltaco 7y ago
      Only about 14% of total green cards are work based. The rest are family based.
brighter2morrow 7y ago
Hey just wondering what Indians are giving to the US' native population that built the country giving them jobs? My great-grandfather, grandfather, and father all fought wars for the country to make it a better place for us and our children. Now the 2% who control the country are importing you to compete with me for jobs. How is that fair to me? You are only thinking of yourself here.
- belltaco 7y ago
  This bill does not add one single green card or H1B visa, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Giving green cards to people waiting in queue for a decade will actually make it more likely that they will switch jobs or demand better salaries, which will make it more likely for companies to hire others. Plus immigrants are more likely to start companies which increases jobs for everyone. >My great-grandfather, grandfather, and father all fought wars... So your forefathers did something great so you're entitled to untold riches? What if your forefathers were slave owners or serial killers? Should you be thrown into jail because of that? How about we judge individuals on their contributions versus their forefathers? >Hey just wondering what Indians are giving to the US' native population that built the country giving them jobs? Things like this: https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doctors-green-card-backlog/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct... Not to mention several inventions and contributions in the tech sector. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Americans#Science_and_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Americans#Scien... Plus, if work immigration is restricted, the jobs will be offshored. It's already happening in some form. There are some tech sectors with zero unemployment like security, and there are millions of job openings. There should be strict laws which are enforced against ageism which is a big problem.
  - AlexB138 7y ago
    I agree with most of your points, but: > So your forefathers did something great so you're entitled to untold riches? Yes, the poster is entitled to the benefits of living in the country they were born in. Infinitely more so than foreigners are entitled to access to his country. A country has an obligation to its citizens, arguably more so to those who have sacrificed to allow it to exist, and none to outsiders who wish to join. Those outsiders' desire to join should be considered only insofar as they benefits the citizens of the country, and I think you've fairly illustrated where that can be the case.

manas666 7y ago

I was talking about big picture. Majority of H1-B are taken by nationals of one country. It cannot be one way street to benefit one country nationals only in H1-B and GC. I agree that the system is completely broken, but the harm to the system is contained within H1-B system only. Thanks to the country limit, the GC immigration system is not broken yet for all other nationals. If America wants diversity in immigration, then the country limit is doing its work perfectly as was designed. I dont agree with you that "US system is subjecting indians" - this is manipulation. You failed to mention that fact that there is entire industry of bringing Indian engineers into US from Hyderabad (and cities like that) via student visas, H1-B, and then GC. It is this system that is flooding the immigration with H1-B and then GCs that put family immigration and other category GCs in a very long backlog

damnyou 7y ago
As a society we decided a long time ago that blanket punishments based on country of origin are immoral.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Err no - society and states are quite happy with economic and other pressure being applied and effecting a population.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Yes, states do all sorts of awful immoral things. But blanket punishments go against the post-war consensus regarding fundamental human rights. Not comparing the backlogs to Japanese internment, but if you look up the history of immigration law you'll realize that the country limits in the 1965 law always had racist intent.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      You mean this 1965 law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac... ? While it was sold to the American people as not affecting demographics ("Secretary of State Dean Rusk and other politicians, including Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), asserted that the bill would not affect the U.S. demographic mix."), this turned out to be extremely false, as pretty much any demographic chart will show.
      - damnyou 7y ago
        Yes, that's what I mean by racist intent. Turned out some of the actions done with racist intent (focus on family-based immigration) backfired, while others (per-country limits) worked out perfectly.
        deogeo 7y ago
        But the law was passed specifically because the previous law was viewed as racist: "the National Origins Formula increasingly came under attack for being racially discriminatory. With the support of the Johnson administration, Senator Philip Hart and Congressman Emanuel Celler introduced a bill to repeal the formula."
        damnyou 7y ago
        It's very common for racism to be replaced by slightly less terrible racism! The most obvious example is how slavery was replaced by Jim Crow laws, segregation, and later the prison system.
belltaco 7y ago
>If America wants diversity in immigration, then the country limit is doing its work perfectly as was designed. No, it's not. The H1Bs that the bill benefits are already in the US and have been living there for several years. The lack of a green card is stopping them from switching jobs, which lowers their salaries which hurts the job market. It also stops them from starting up their own companies and creating jobs for everyone. >You failed to mention that fact that there is entire industry of bringing Indian engineers into US from Hyderabad (and cities like that) via student visas, H1-B, and then GC. It is this system that is flooding the immigration with H1-B Body shops and US companies prefer Indians instead of other nationalities because they would be stuck in the backlog which makes it really hard for them to switch jobs, so they can be paid less while reducing turnover costs. This bill will equalize things so people from other nations will be on a level playing field.
- manas666 7y ago
  that's the problem of broken H1-B system that indians abused for a very long time and enjoyed the benefits of getting tens of thousands H1-B eveyr year. Now are paying for it by being in a queue. H1-B is a temporary visa for 3 years, and was designed as such. This is not a guaranteed GC, so let's talk about who is abusing the system from working as intended, rather than lifting systemic barriers that will hurt everybody (including american citizens that will lose their jobs really fast)
  - belltaco 7y ago
    >rather than lifting systemic barriers that will hurt everybody (including american citizens that will lose their jobs really fast) The bill does not add one new green card or one new H1B visa so I have no idea of what people like you keep talking about. Looks like the fake news and propaganda has won. I give up. >Now are paying for it by being in a queue. Yea lets punish rural doctors for being born in India. https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doctors-green-card-backlog/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct...
  - thrill 7y ago
    Indians did not abuse it if the law allowed their entry. There is no such thing as "working as intended" when it comes to law - there is (non)compliance. Congress's intent is fully specified when the law is written. Any wiggle room is due to Congress's inability to be precise, and occasionally interpreted by the Court when some specific law becomes a big enough issue to a complaining party that it's worth their effort to take it that far.

blunte 7y ago

It's not easy for American citizens to get permanent work/live visas in most other countries either. And it is often in the interest of each country to prevent an influx of additional (lower wage) workers in trades that already have enough workers. A parallel can be seen of how Walmart entered rural and small town America years ago and killed many local businesses. It also lowered local wages, because the primary job became Walmart Checker. If you are a country of 330 million people, and you do not put limits on countries 5X larger, then you will find your citizens less employed and lower income. This is not racist, nationalist, or any other label. I suppose you could label it "localist", whereby you favor local resources over remote ones. The excuse used by tech companies starting around 2000 was that there were not enough talented local workers, so importing cheaper (and often lower skilled) workers was the answer. That's not to imply that all foreign labor is lower skilled. However, displacing local workers with foreign workers without some quality control, especially where the pay is lower, will result in an accumulation of lower skilled workers.

manas666 7y ago
Agree, every day companies merge and reduce their workforce and who's getting axed first? Expensive american workforce. Pretty soon they are replaced by foreign nationals either onshore or offshore using "workforce augmentation" companies that are consultancies Let's talk about the entire picture, if we want to discuss immigration "fairness"
nraynaud 7y ago
my wife will have permanent resident visa for France in just a few weeks. It took me 7 months to get a k1 visa then 1.5 years to get a green card. "localist" -> you're looking for "xenophobic".
- blunte 7y ago
  Nope. Having an affinity for people you live near does not imply that you dislike others. It may be true for some people, but it is not a logical truth. Isn't a K1 visa related to marriage? That's nice for people who happen to be marrying a national, but that doesn't apply to most people.

deogeo 7y ago

> racially discriminatory provisions put in place to satisfy southern segregationists The vast majority of green cards go to majority-non-white countries - the chart at the bottom of https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/06/more-than-half-of-new-green-cards-go-to-people-already-living-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/06/more-than-h... shows the country of origin breakdown.

wolco 7y ago
Non white countries have white populations. How many whites vs blacks get visas in South African historically?
- deogeo 7y ago
  If you have statistics showing that US green cards are mostly awarded to whites, despite going to mostly non-white-countries, please share them. It would certainly go against the general trend of US immigration, which is predominantly non-white, and has been since 1965.
belltaco 7y ago
Correct me if I am wrong but those numbers are not for work green cards.
- deogeo 7y ago
  I'm honestly not sure. Until now, I had no idea that was a special type of green card. The second-to-last chart in that article mentions employment as an admission category, so maybe? Better sources are welcome. In either case, pretty much every source I'm aware of shows immigration to the US as predominantly non-white, so I'd like to see the claim that it appeases southern segregationists backed up by some evidence.
  - belltaco 7y ago
    Only about 14% of total green cards are work based. The rest are family based.

brighter2morrow 7y ago

Hey just wondering what Indians are giving to the US' native population that built the country giving them jobs? My great-grandfather, grandfather, and father all fought wars for the country to make it a better place for us and our children. Now the 2% who control the country are importing you to compete with me for jobs. How is that fair to me? You are only thinking of yourself here.

belltaco 7y ago
This bill does not add one single green card or H1B visa, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Giving green cards to people waiting in queue for a decade will actually make it more likely that they will switch jobs or demand better salaries, which will make it more likely for companies to hire others. Plus immigrants are more likely to start companies which increases jobs for everyone. >My great-grandfather, grandfather, and father all fought wars... So your forefathers did something great so you're entitled to untold riches? What if your forefathers were slave owners or serial killers? Should you be thrown into jail because of that? How about we judge individuals on their contributions versus their forefathers? >Hey just wondering what Indians are giving to the US' native population that built the country giving them jobs? Things like this: https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doctors-green-card-backlog/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/08/news/economy/immigrant-doct... Not to mention several inventions and contributions in the tech sector. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Americans#Science_and_technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_Americans#Scien... Plus, if work immigration is restricted, the jobs will be offshored. It's already happening in some form. There are some tech sectors with zero unemployment like security, and there are millions of job openings. There should be strict laws which are enforced against ageism which is a big problem.
- AlexB138 7y ago
  I agree with most of your points, but: > So your forefathers did something great so you're entitled to untold riches? Yes, the poster is entitled to the benefits of living in the country they were born in. Infinitely more so than foreigners are entitled to access to his country. A country has an obligation to its citizens, arguably more so to those who have sacrificed to allow it to exist, and none to outsiders who wish to join. Those outsiders' desire to join should be considered only insofar as they benefits the citizens of the country, and I think you've fairly illustrated where that can be the case.