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> The hpkg is mounted and the filesystem is exposed to the user who launches the application through it. > With AppImage, no expectation exists that the mounted

> The hpkg is mounted and the filesystem is exposed to the user who launches the application through it. > With AppImage, no expectation exists that the mounted fs is a real fs because the user never interacts with it. When is the last time you browsed through /usr or C:\Program Files\ in a file manager? The same is true in Haiku. It's there for the power users; normal users should not need to go into it and poke around. The user should interact with it via the Deskbar, desktop symlinks, etc. Not by browsing /system/. > The hpkgs get mounted, then I launch the application, then I close the application. Now I remove the thumbdrive. What happens? The filesystem the thumbdrive contained gets unmounted, and in the process all child vnodes and file descriptors are closed, and so the packages on the thumbdrive are consequently unmounted also. > With an AppImage in this scenario, what happens is exactly what you'd expect: nothing. The AppImage fs was mounted at launch, and unmounted at close, and never seen by the user. HPKGs would be mounted for as long as possible so that the applications contained could be, say, launched to handle a file. But as I noted above, this should indeed work just fine on Haiku with nearly the same paradigm as AppImages do.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> When is the last time you browsed through /usr or C:\Program Files\ in a file manager? Literally every day. > It's there for the power users; normal users should not need to go into it and poke around. See right here is a red flag for me in terms of culture: I do not consider there to be a difference between "power Users" and "users". This distinction only exists as an excuse for why things have to suck. Why does this thing suck? Oh, it's because normal users won't understand X or only want Y, unlike special snowflake power users. I think users should be treated with some respect instead of condescension. Again, one of my big problems with Linux Desktop culture, and maybe you can see why I've previously painted Haiku with that same brush. You're excusing an incongruity in the metaphor presented by the system and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". > The filesystem the thumbdrive contained gets unmounted, and in the process all child vnodes and file descriptors are closed, and so the packages on the thumbdrive are consequently unmounted also. Well that's good, at least it doesn't hang around as a ghost until the user attempts to interact with it and it throws an error. It still seems odd that one would have to perform the extra step of "installing" (mounting) the hpkg before finding the application and running it, which is an advantage of AppImage: you just run it.
- waddlesplash 7y ago
  > and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. > Why does this thing suck? Oh, it's because normal users won't understand X or only want Y, unlike special snowflake power users. We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. (Unlike a lot of Linux desktop developers and supposed evangelists, who you see using macOS instead of Linux and just developing inside VMs, which might be the source of why Linux is so terrible in this regard.)
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
    > I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. > We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. Sure, and I'm saying that a system need not put a wall between the two. One side that understands "how it really works" and another that is presented with a facade and expected never to look behind the curtain. A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler.
    - waddlesplash 7y ago

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago

> When is the last time you browsed through /usr or C:\Program Files\ in a file manager? Literally every day. > It's there for the power users; normal users should not need to go into it and poke around. See right here is a red flag for me in terms of culture: I do not consider there to be a difference between "power Users" and "users". This distinction only exists as an excuse for why things have to suck. Why does this thing suck? Oh, it's because normal users won't understand X or only want Y, unlike special snowflake power users. I think users should be treated with some respect instead of condescension. Again, one of my big problems with Linux Desktop culture, and maybe you can see why I've previously painted Haiku with that same brush. You're excusing an incongruity in the metaphor presented by the system and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". > The filesystem the thumbdrive contained gets unmounted, and in the process all child vnodes and file descriptors are closed, and so the packages on the thumbdrive are consequently unmounted also. Well that's good, at least it doesn't hang around as a ghost until the user attempts to interact with it and it throws an error. It still seems odd that one would have to perform the extra step of "installing" (mounting) the hpkg before finding the application and running it, which is an advantage of AppImage: you just run it.

waddlesplash 7y ago
> and how the system actually works with the Linux Desktop Evangelism approved mantra "well normal users don't care". I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. > Why does this thing suck? Oh, it's because normal users won't understand X or only want Y, unlike special snowflake power users. We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. (Unlike a lot of Linux desktop developers and supposed evangelists, who you see using macOS instead of Linux and just developing inside VMs, which might be the source of why Linux is so terrible in this regard.)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > I don't really know what to say here because, well, it's true: they don't. The majority of users of technology are not technically savvy and just want to write documents, talk to their friends, get work done, etc. They don't know how it works and don't really much care, they just need it to work. So why bother making Haiku? All of that strawman's needs are served perfectly well, in fact even better, by a Chromebook. Maybe this is something you can only really get if you grew up with computers that booted into BASIC. > We developers are obviously "power users" ourselves, so we need the system to work for that case; and lots of our users could not write a line of code to save their lives, so we need the system to work for that case, too. Sure, and I'm saying that a system need not put a wall between the two. One side that understands "how it really works" and another that is presented with a facade and expected never to look behind the curtain. A well designed system can be understood in pieces, or layers, giving the user a path to more power and a better understanding of their tools as they seek it at their own pace. The attitude I'm against is the one that says if you don't want to do the "normal user" thing, then the next step is a C compiler.
  - waddlesplash 7y ago