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The fact that they even started the project speaks for itself. Companies don't have ethical standards, only slick PR departments.

geophertz 7y ago
Strangely people do not care about Apple doing the same thing. Even on HN posts talking about how Apple sells privacy as a product are upvoted and reach > 1000 upvotes.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  As I understand it, Apple allows iOS users to use an end to end encrypted product with an option to back up to Chinese Communist Party silo of iCloud. Apple does not offer a product that spies on user usage all the time monitoring for thought crime, as Web Search just under Chinese law.
- ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
  You know what company was once in China and pulled out on moral grounds? Google. [1] Yet nobody cares, as evidenced by the number of companies who do plenty of business in China without backlash. So Google tries to go back to China, and everyone loses their minds. It's frustrating to be honest, it's as if they're be punished for a good deed they did 10 years ago. If they had just never left, they'd be in the same situation as Apple, where nobody (or magnitudes less, if you want to get pedantic) cares. I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of China. I would hate to see Google suffer because they weren't ever allowed to compete with Baidu on their home turf. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-20...
  - tgragnato 7y ago
    > I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of China. "If you open the window, both fresh air and flies will be blown in." 邓小平 That ideology works and benefits China only if there is a disparity between what China is allowed to do in the rest of the world and what China allows the world to do. I am also convinced that restoring an equal relationship is a great way to make the Chinese problem settle on its own.
  - CodiePetersen 7y ago
    Actually that is a very good point. It is a bit unfair to allow Baidu to operate free outside but hold Google to a certain ethical standard. I had never considered that.
- CodiePetersen 7y ago
  I wouldn't say people don't. I would definitely say HN seems not to care. I think what is more the issue is there are a lot of people on HN who see any criticism of China as nationalistic behavior from Americans at least considering the language our president has chosen to use. Which I would say that is a bad stance to take just because someone else's language is nationalistic on an issue doesn't mean my criticism is. But that seems to be the main issue. Not any particular company just talk around China. But I agree many of these tech companies are constantly stepping over the line because they have no real competition. Which is why I say break them up.
Matticus_Rex 7y ago
Some companies do have ethical standards, but the question is where those standards live with respect to decision-making. If projects can get started before they get any attention from the standards, their momentum can keep them alive (particularly in public companies where shareholders pressure you not to leave money on the table).
- i_am_nomad 7y ago
  This is a very good point, I'm glad someone said this, since it adds some much-needed nuance to my original comment. The corollary is that ethical standards are irrelevant if they're not applied, and to your specific point, if there's no structure or workflow that allows them to be applied early and often.
mtgx 7y ago
Don't be evil being spread throughout their work of conduct documents used to be pretty good for that, which is why you have so many people push back against management on this and Project Maven now. But when Google all but removed the don't be evil thing from the work of conduct guidelines, that should have been a huge red flag that the company is no longer interested in "educating" its employees on this kind of ethics, and would prefer that its new employees treat the one and only leftover mention of Don't be evil in the work of conduct as what it really is now - a way for Google to say that it's still in there somewhere, and nothing more. The Don't be evil spirit within work of conduct guidelines is gone.
Kaiyou 7y ago
Sony apparently has an ethics department whose job it is to censor games before they are allowed on the PS4.
matz1 7y ago
Everyone, including companies do have ethical standard, its just they might not be aligned with your ethics.

geophertz 7y ago

Strangely people do not care about Apple doing the same thing. Even on HN posts talking about how Apple sells privacy as a product are upvoted and reach > 1000 upvotes.

lonelappde 7y ago
As I understand it, Apple allows iOS users to use an end to end encrypted product with an option to back up to Chinese Communist Party silo of iCloud. Apple does not offer a product that spies on user usage all the time monitoring for thought crime, as Web Search just under Chinese law.
ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
You know what company was once in China and pulled out on moral grounds? Google. [1] Yet nobody cares, as evidenced by the number of companies who do plenty of business in China without backlash. So Google tries to go back to China, and everyone loses their minds. It's frustrating to be honest, it's as if they're be punished for a good deed they did 10 years ago. If they had just never left, they'd be in the same situation as Apple, where nobody (or magnitudes less, if you want to get pedantic) cares. I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of China. I would hate to see Google suffer because they weren't ever allowed to compete with Baidu on their home turf. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-20...
- tgragnato 7y ago
  > I at least hope governments will ban Baidu from ever competing outside of China. "If you open the window, both fresh air and flies will be blown in." 邓小平 That ideology works and benefits China only if there is a disparity between what China is allowed to do in the rest of the world and what China allows the world to do. I am also convinced that restoring an equal relationship is a great way to make the Chinese problem settle on its own.
- CodiePetersen 7y ago
  Actually that is a very good point. It is a bit unfair to allow Baidu to operate free outside but hold Google to a certain ethical standard. I had never considered that.
CodiePetersen 7y ago
I wouldn't say people don't. I would definitely say HN seems not to care. I think what is more the issue is there are a lot of people on HN who see any criticism of China as nationalistic behavior from Americans at least considering the language our president has chosen to use. Which I would say that is a bad stance to take just because someone else's language is nationalistic on an issue doesn't mean my criticism is. But that seems to be the main issue. Not any particular company just talk around China. But I agree many of these tech companies are constantly stepping over the line because they have no real competition. Which is why I say break them up.

Matticus_Rex 7y ago

Some companies do have ethical standards, but the question is where those standards live with respect to decision-making. If projects can get started before they get any attention from the standards, their momentum can keep them alive (particularly in public companies where shareholders pressure you not to leave money on the table).

i_am_nomad 7y ago
This is a very good point, I'm glad someone said this, since it adds some much-needed nuance to my original comment. The corollary is that ethical standards are irrelevant if they're not applied, and to your specific point, if there's no structure or workflow that allows them to be applied early and often.

mtgx 7y ago

Don't be evil being spread throughout their work of conduct documents used to be pretty good for that, which is why you have so many people push back against management on this and Project Maven now. But when Google all but removed the don't be evil thing from the work of conduct guidelines, that should have been a huge red flag that the company is no longer interested in "educating" its employees on this kind of ethics, and would prefer that its new employees treat the one and only leftover mention of Don't be evil in the work of conduct as what it really is now - a way for Google to say that it's still in there somewhere, and nothing more. The Don't be evil spirit within work of conduct guidelines is gone.

Kaiyou 7y ago

Sony apparently has an ethics department whose job it is to censor games before they are allowed on the PS4.

matz1 7y ago

Everyone, including companies do have ethical standard, its just they might not be aligned with your ethics.