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>This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. But it doesn't. People are breaking the social contract by not res

>This is one of the reasons I don't stay in airbnbs - the system breaks the social contract. But it doesn't. People are breaking the social contract by not respecting the area. If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract? Tourists and visitors existing in a space (unless it's too many) isn't inherently violating the social contract. Their selfish behavior is the issue. I understand what you mean. I have neighbors down the road who throw a massive family gathering once per year that I'm certain breaks noise, traffic and safety ordinances[0] due to the sound system still going at 10PM and parked cars littering both sides of the streets. That's not due to Airbnb or any other hospitality broker. If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. It's possible that they don't even know they're being a nuisance. I have had cops called on me for a noise complaint. It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. [0]: As far as I know, no one reports the reunion/gathering. I like to think that since we're all very respectful of each other's property and space, breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal.

bluejekyll 7y ago
> It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. Sadly, too many people now are afraid of conflict, even small conflict, they prefer to call the police rather than deal with others directly. They don’t want to deal with it themselves. That anxiety I’m sure goes up with unknown Airbnbers, and so raises the likely good that people will probably call the police instead.
- rhacker 7y ago
  Sadly, too many people have become toxic. My first action is usually to talk to people, asking them to turn things down until I can't hear it. It works increasingly less over time. Instead I get people that turn the volume up. I am slowly moving towards calling the police first lately.
  - theflyinghorse 7y ago
    I would be very hesitant to call the police in the US given their reputation.
- mrguyorama 7y ago
  It shouldn't be my job to police some Valley company's profit center. They don't pay me a dime
- skgoa 7y ago
  But this stems from lots of people having bad experiences with obnoxious people who will not stop before the police is called.
pgeorgi 7y ago
> If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. This is externalizing a social cost: Normally your neighbor (that you know personally, ideally, so you can discuss any matters with somebody you know) will take care of their visitors' conduct. When we're away, we sometimes have friends over to house-sit, but we know them, we know their conduct, they know us, and they're not interested in giving us a bad reputation in the neighborhood. With airbnb, the owner of the apartment likely doesn't know their "visitor" (otherwise, why pay a commission to airbnb?) and often they're not around to enforce standards. It's a huge diffusion of responsibility.
JackFr 7y ago
> friends house sit and > Tourists and visitors existing in a space are very different things.
pen2l 7y ago
> If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? That's different. You know your friends. You don't know your airbnb guests, and the reviews are only worth so much. I can't find the article now, but some porn company had an easy time gaming airbnb by getting good reviews in the beginning and using the place for shoots on the 10th stay or whatever. And, as a person who had I think ~15 airbnbs from 2015-2018, the recent change I don't like is that some houseowners hire an 18 year told (who I have to call and meet outside) and have him give me a hurried 10 minute intro and then leave. I actually _was_ one of those people who enjoyed airbnbs for the reasons they publicize (the 'it's not a hotel' line, the 'feel at home with friends!' type of thing) -- but that seems to have largely disappeared. Last time I was in an airbnb, I would always get these nasty glares from the neighborhoods, who seem to be just screaming "We don't want you here, strange" with their facial expressions. Staying at a hotel is indeed now much more comfortable, and the consistency of services (while not perfect) is better than airbnbs in my recent experiences.
- fastball 7y ago
  Right, so the owner is potentially breaking the social contract by maybe allowing someone without respect for others to stay in their home (though ratings systems are generally used exactly to allow this type of vetting in advance). But the guest is not automatically breaking the social contract by staying in an AirBnB, which is what was implied by the OC.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    The OC said, "the system breaks the social contract". > the owner is potentially breaking the social contract by maybe allowing someone without respect for others to stay in their home And a person walking around the gas station with an open flame is only potentially a fire hazard, because they may very well get lucky and not set any fuel fumes on fire. Reality doesn't work like that. You drop the "potentially" once the risk becomes predictably high. The owner is breaking the social contract by putting their neighbors at very high risk of dealing with guests who don't respect other people. > though ratings systems are generally used exactly to allow this type of vetting in advance Ranking systems are trivially gamed. One would think everyone knows this by now. > But the guest is not automatically breaking the social contract by staying in an AirBnB No, they're not. But if they behave as if they were in a hotel while in a residential-area AirBnB, they most likely are. Maybe they should know better than to behave like that. But AirBnB should know better than enabling this problem in the first place.
mbostleman 7y ago
I'd also like to see some data on the loud and unruly complaints. Of course those that have had problems are going to be the loudest voices, but it's anecdotal. I have friends in a nearby suburban neighborhood (we live in a heavily seasonal tourist area) where, amazingly, the HOA allows vacation rentals and they have the opposite impression: they have told me that they have always heard that vacation renters are loud and annoying, but have never had a problem in their neighborhood. Also anecdotal of course. But makes me wonder if there's really anything to it.
- vangelis 7y ago
  Could be self selection for people who would pick their vacation rental in a suburban neighborhood with a HOA?
sleepychu 7y ago
> breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal. This is the core of the problem. My neighbors across the hall might have a party from time to time and it's of course no big deal (espescially if they take the time to leave me a note with a way to contact them if it's causing a problem). My neighbors above me are always on their "special event once in a while" with 6 people in a 2 bedroom flat because today is their bachelorette, stag do, end of year blow out, holiday, party.
bassman9000 7y ago
* If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract?* Do you charge them? I guess not. And it's one of the reasons why they'll do their best to honor your trust and reputation, aside from, obviously, your friendship, given you trust them.

bluejekyll 7y ago

> It would have been a better use of everyone's time to knock and let us know. Sadly, too many people now are afraid of conflict, even small conflict, they prefer to call the police rather than deal with others directly. They don’t want to deal with it themselves. That anxiety I’m sure goes up with unknown Airbnbers, and so raises the likely good that people will probably call the police instead.

rhacker 7y ago
Sadly, too many people have become toxic. My first action is usually to talk to people, asking them to turn things down until I can't hear it. It works increasingly less over time. Instead I get people that turn the volume up. I am slowly moving towards calling the police first lately.
- theflyinghorse 7y ago
  I would be very hesitant to call the police in the US given their reputation.
mrguyorama 7y ago
It shouldn't be my job to police some Valley company's profit center. They don't pay me a dime
skgoa 7y ago
But this stems from lots of people having bad experiences with obnoxious people who will not stop before the police is called.

pgeorgi 7y ago

> If you have an issue with visitors, talk to them. This is externalizing a social cost: Normally your neighbor (that you know personally, ideally, so you can discuss any matters with somebody you know) will take care of their visitors' conduct. When we're away, we sometimes have friends over to house-sit, but we know them, we know their conduct, they know us, and they're not interested in giving us a bad reputation in the neighborhood. With airbnb, the owner of the apartment likely doesn't know their "visitor" (otherwise, why pay a commission to airbnb?) and often they're not around to enforce standards. It's a huge diffusion of responsibility.

JackFr 7y ago

> friends house sit and > Tourists and visitors existing in a space are very different things.

pen2l 7y ago

> If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? That's different. You know your friends. You don't know your airbnb guests, and the reviews are only worth so much. I can't find the article now, but some porn company had an easy time gaming airbnb by getting good reviews in the beginning and using the place for shoots on the 10th stay or whatever. And, as a person who had I think ~15 airbnbs from 2015-2018, the recent change I don't like is that some houseowners hire an 18 year told (who I have to call and meet outside) and have him give me a hurried 10 minute intro and then leave. I actually _was_ one of those people who enjoyed airbnbs for the reasons they publicize (the 'it's not a hotel' line, the 'feel at home with friends!' type of thing) -- but that seems to have largely disappeared. Last time I was in an airbnb, I would always get these nasty glares from the neighborhoods, who seem to be just screaming "We don't want you here, strange" with their facial expressions. Staying at a hotel is indeed now much more comfortable, and the consistency of services (while not perfect) is better than airbnbs in my recent experiences.

fastball 7y ago
Right, so the owner is potentially breaking the social contract by maybe allowing someone without respect for others to stay in their home (though ratings systems are generally used exactly to allow this type of vetting in advance). But the guest is not automatically breaking the social contract by staying in an AirBnB, which is what was implied by the OC.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  The OC said, "the system breaks the social contract". > the owner is potentially breaking the social contract by maybe allowing someone without respect for others to stay in their home And a person walking around the gas station with an open flame is only potentially a fire hazard, because they may very well get lucky and not set any fuel fumes on fire. Reality doesn't work like that. You drop the "potentially" once the risk becomes predictably high. The owner is breaking the social contract by putting their neighbors at very high risk of dealing with guests who don't respect other people. > though ratings systems are generally used exactly to allow this type of vetting in advance Ranking systems are trivially gamed. One would think everyone knows this by now. > But the guest is not automatically breaking the social contract by staying in an AirBnB No, they're not. But if they behave as if they were in a hotel while in a residential-area AirBnB, they most likely are. Maybe they should know better than to behave like that. But AirBnB should know better than enabling this problem in the first place.

mbostleman 7y ago

I'd also like to see some data on the loud and unruly complaints. Of course those that have had problems are going to be the loudest voices, but it's anecdotal. I have friends in a nearby suburban neighborhood (we live in a heavily seasonal tourist area) where, amazingly, the HOA allows vacation rentals and they have the opposite impression: they have told me that they have always heard that vacation renters are loud and annoying, but have never had a problem in their neighborhood. Also anecdotal of course. But makes me wonder if there's really anything to it.

vangelis 7y ago
Could be self selection for people who would pick their vacation rental in a suburban neighborhood with a HOA?

sleepychu 7y ago

> breaking the rules for a special event once in a while is no big deal. This is the core of the problem. My neighbors across the hall might have a party from time to time and it's of course no big deal (espescially if they take the time to leave me a note with a way to contact them if it's causing a problem). My neighbors above me are always on their "special event once in a while" with 6 people in a 2 bedroom flat because today is their bachelorette, stag do, end of year blow out, holiday, party.

bassman9000 7y ago

* If I invite friends from out of town over for the weekend, is that breaking the social contract? If I'm going away for 2 weeks, and I have friends house sit for the duration, is that breaking the social contract?* Do you charge them? I guess not. And it's one of the reasons why they'll do their best to honor your trust and reputation, aside from, obviously, your friendship, given you trust them.