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I had an assignment at the Dutch Tax Service and was surprised to learn that they were still actively developing new software in COBOL. The reason, I was told,

I had an assignment at the Dutch Tax Service and was surprised to learn that they were still actively developing new software in COBOL. The reason, I was told, was that they had many COBOL developers and not as many that were experienced in other languages. Most of these people, however will start their pensions in a couple of years, so they'll have nobody to maintain this stuff.

hnarn 7y ago
> The reason, I was told, was that they had many COBOL developers and not as many that were experienced in other languages. That doesn't sound like a very good reason when you pair it with the fact that: > Most of these people, however will start their pensions in a couple of years Incredible oversight that will either lead to some potentially very serious consequences, or some very high consultancy costs.
- donkeyd 7y ago
  Yup, I told someone who worked there this and they agreed, but explained that their management doesn't seem to plan that far ahead. I'm not even sure they're really aware that this is coming.
  - consp 7y ago
    That is one of the management's primary jobs to foresee this ... I know there are multiple layers of useless management in these institutions but this is basically saying they are incompetent at their job.
    - donkeyd 7y ago
      You are completely correct. There are so many levels of management that I never really fully grasped it and most managers are focused on their own personal growth, in stead of the performance of their units. I have another example of their oversight: In my team there was a single developer who was not a contractor. He was competent and an autodidact. It took them over 6 months to find a way to increase his pay, which would still be less than €4k if I remember correctly. The rest of the team were contractors getting paid well over €100 an hour, which (all costs considered) is about 2-3x more expensive. He left before they were able to give him a raise and replaced him with another contractor. This happens there all the time, because of stupid rules that make getting raises really hard, people leave and sometimes even get rehired as contractors for twice the cost. Everyone knows it happens, but nobody does anything to change it.
- semyonsh 7y ago
  The Dutch government is unfortunately known for having IT projects fail constantly, they've already accumulated an enormous technical debt. They outsource a lot because the current staff is either close to retirement or just can't be motivated anymore to put in the effort. Hearing this is the least surprising to be honest.
  - donkeyd 7y ago
    I've done quite a bit of work in Dutch government IT and would like to add that the failure of these projects is often because of politics and constantly changing requirements. IT is often working really hard and doing the best they can, but scope creep, forced deadlines and constant changes in leadership make it nearly impossible to actually do things right. Technical debt is also a huge issue indeed, since focus is always on delivering new features, because that allows leadership to move to new positions. Delivering stable maintainable code/infra isn't visible.
tiku 7y ago
This is why they are giving a summer course this year, with Hello World in Cobol etc. Lol
- donkeyd 7y ago
  I thought you were joking, but it seems like they really are. That's incredible! https://werken.belastingdienst.nl/bd-update/ict-summercourse-tweedaagse-workshop-cobol-juli-83 https://werken.belastingdienst.nl/bd-update/ict-summercourse...

hnarn 7y ago

> The reason, I was told, was that they had many COBOL developers and not as many that were experienced in other languages. That doesn't sound like a very good reason when you pair it with the fact that: > Most of these people, however will start their pensions in a couple of years Incredible oversight that will either lead to some potentially very serious consequences, or some very high consultancy costs.

donkeyd 7y ago
Yup, I told someone who worked there this and they agreed, but explained that their management doesn't seem to plan that far ahead. I'm not even sure they're really aware that this is coming.
- consp 7y ago
  That is one of the management's primary jobs to foresee this ... I know there are multiple layers of useless management in these institutions but this is basically saying they are incompetent at their job.
  - donkeyd 7y ago
    You are completely correct. There are so many levels of management that I never really fully grasped it and most managers are focused on their own personal growth, in stead of the performance of their units. I have another example of their oversight: In my team there was a single developer who was not a contractor. He was competent and an autodidact. It took them over 6 months to find a way to increase his pay, which would still be less than €4k if I remember correctly. The rest of the team were contractors getting paid well over €100 an hour, which (all costs considered) is about 2-3x more expensive. He left before they were able to give him a raise and replaced him with another contractor. This happens there all the time, because of stupid rules that make getting raises really hard, people leave and sometimes even get rehired as contractors for twice the cost. Everyone knows it happens, but nobody does anything to change it.
semyonsh 7y ago
The Dutch government is unfortunately known for having IT projects fail constantly, they've already accumulated an enormous technical debt. They outsource a lot because the current staff is either close to retirement or just can't be motivated anymore to put in the effort. Hearing this is the least surprising to be honest.
- donkeyd 7y ago
  I've done quite a bit of work in Dutch government IT and would like to add that the failure of these projects is often because of politics and constantly changing requirements. IT is often working really hard and doing the best they can, but scope creep, forced deadlines and constant changes in leadership make it nearly impossible to actually do things right. Technical debt is also a huge issue indeed, since focus is always on delivering new features, because that allows leadership to move to new positions. Delivering stable maintainable code/infra isn't visible.

tiku 7y ago

This is why they are giving a summer course this year, with Hello World in Cobol etc. Lol

donkeyd 7y ago
I thought you were joking, but it seems like they really are. That's incredible! https://werken.belastingdienst.nl/bd-update/ict-summercourse-tweedaagse-workshop-cobol-juli-83 https://werken.belastingdienst.nl/bd-update/ict-summercourse...