6 ms·

I don't feel like my ability to interface with the computer is a major bottleneck for me. If I'm writing code, for example, my typing speed is really not a fact

by datpuz 7y ago

GuiA 7y ago
Obviously this is a very personal thing, but that is not the case for me. I often can “see” entire chunks of code in my head, and typing out those 20 lines ends up feeling slow and frustrating. Of course that’s not systematically the case - in many instances, I am thinking as I am writing the code. But for many straightforward control functions, tests, constructors/destructors, etc. the keyboard absolutely feels like a bottleneck. (There is the orthogonal debate that perhaps a better language would allow me to express more concisely these things that feel straightforward)
- cambalache 7y ago
  For me too. Something like auto-completion for the brain. Not in the "let me complete this command/file name for you" But in the "let me write immediately and correctly the 20 lines of code for the exact procedure you think you need and you just thought in a second". I know it sounds like it is impossible now, but who knows? Maybe it will start with some macros for the brain.
  - youareostriches 7y ago
    That might not always be possible. Sometimes I don’t know the full definition of the function upfront; I have to discover/invent it one line at a time and can’t do that without pausing and thinking about the line I just wrote.
- edna314 7y ago
  I know exactly what kind of frustration you mean. I think this frustration often comes about, because writing code up is a first quality control and it might seem unnecessary for straight forward stuff to be quality controlled. While spending less work on trivial stuff seems reasonable, if I do introduce a bug in trivial code it will be harder to track it down, because I will always first check whether or not all the tricky parts work. On top of that you indirectly incentivize yourself for thinking something is trivial, because it would mean less work and somehow my brain is very good at tricking me into doing less work in situations where obviously more work is required. So, even if it was possible to paste code from the brain I would recommend reading it again carefully and then the speed advantages are gone. The only situation where you wouldn’t need it are really repetitive tasks, but in these situations you can have macros/snippets.
moab 7y ago
Even if the speed is identical to how fast you are thinking of words to type, there are plenty of applications (prevent RSI, accessibility for amputees).
m463 7y ago
I've always thought riding a motorcycle is sometimes hard to do because holding onto the bike is at odds with working the controls because both use your hands and feet. Tasks along these lines would be a great match for better computer interfaces.
- robgibbons 7y ago
  You should be gripping your bike mostly with your knees. Also, I think that sense of mechanical coordination is something most motorcyclists actually enjoy.
  - m463 7y ago
    That makes it hard to click your heels. To refute your assertion more precisely, there is ample evidence that bikes have hand and foot controls that are frequently modified from the current controls. Some electric bikes move both brakes to the handlebars. Many roadracing motorcycles have added thumb brakes. And I've had plenty of situations on dirtbikes where I can't use to the shifter or rear brake because of silliness like water or mud. And then there's broken levers.
yarg 7y ago
No, but the language certainly is. Imagine a computer interface capable of actualising the conceptual structures that you are imagining. Imagine that this interface had a feedback mechanism simulating a virtual eye allowing you to perceive a full three dimensional rendering of that concept in real time. Now think of an arraylist, think of how it responds to changes, visualise the corner cases. You just wrote the code.
- tastroder 7y ago
  Can we please not adopt this as a potential use case for this topic though? Real applications look more like this: Imagine a movement. Follow an intense training protocol many times for each possible movement so that the signal processing component actually gets meaningful data it can differentiate and is certain enough that you want to trigger something. After multiple hours of training it might actually get good enough. Input dimensionality for that method would likely be simple action triggers (at least less than a traditional keyboard) instead of a complex concept abstraction. Alternative: Stare at a board of visual stimuli, repeat for a few hours in order to train the system to your brain. Stare at board of visual stimuli again in order to actually use the thing. Again, slow paced and limited input dimensionality. While these invasive models produce better signals than non-invasive BCI, they do not include a feedback mechanism and have far less throughput than using a keyboard. Which is great if you have a medical need for the technology and thus cannot use traditional interfaces, everything else is sci fi. I'm not trying to say that this isn't cool but we should really refrain from painting it as some miracle tech, otherwise we cannot really complain if media adopts that image and misrepresents the whole field again.
  - trevyn 7y ago
    Except that Neuralink clearly stated that they have ambitions for all of this, which is unusual for a company developing a medical device. Also, wouldn’t the stim abilities count as a feedback mechanism?
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Because Neuralink wasn't started in order to develop a medical device, it was started with an explicit goal to develop a BCI to ultimately improve the cognitive capabilities of healthy humans.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
It definitely is for me. Not all the time - I can type at the speed of thought, and using powerful languages + some completions minimizes the time I spend frustrating over boilerplate - but frequently enough, and especially when conceptualizing and designing something. When designing, even a whiteboard is a bottleneck for me, and so is pen and paper. I can't draw nearly as fast as I need, and then I can't really manipulate the drawings much either. I dream of being able to conjure 2D and 3D diagrams at will, of manipulating them and connecting them together. When focused, I really do feel like I have limited RAM and a very slow I/O for swap. (I seem to suffer from aphantasia. I'm jealous of people who can freely visualize and manipulate stuff in their heads and actually "see" the results.)
- CJKerr 7y ago
  > I seem to suffer from aphantasia I'm interested for the same reasons - I can't hold much of an image in my head for very long, and being able to persist what I can imagine so I can examine it in detail with my actual eyes would be extremely useful.
  - kranner 7y ago
    FWIW Tibetan Buddhism has concentration exercises revolving around visualisation that might help develop this ability. Not sure if it would work for 'true' aphantasia.
    - DennisP 7y ago
      For anyone who wants to look into that, it's called "kasina practice." There's a chapter about it in Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, though he describes it as an advanced technique for people who already have a high degree of concentration. There's also "image streaming" which is similar, and might be more accessible: https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photographers/ https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photogra... http://www.winwenger.com/imstream.htm http://www.winwenger.com/imstream.htm http://www.winwenger.com/isbackup.htm http://www.winwenger.com/isbackup.htm
buboard 7y ago
imagine doing that without needing to sit in front or near your computer though
abledon 7y ago
Try 3d modelling in ZBrush
vincentmarle 7y ago
Don’t take the thought = input too literally, your computer input companion will be an AI system, not a keyboard. Just think about how Siri’s AI can mostly understand what you’re saying even with background noise, stuttering, pausing, and coughing when talking. Now imagine talking to Siri at the speed of your thoughts.
schappim 7y ago
It’s not just for coding. Imagine being able to kick off Alfred app [1] workflows from your mind! I actually have looked into this using a Neurosky mind wave, but the signal wasn’t great. I also tried a USB foot peddle. [1] https://www.alfredapp.com/
drawnwren 7y ago
I respectfully disagree. Your first mistake is equating programming to input. Ask yourself how much time you lose to the externalities of coding (ci, context switches, the shell, etc). Consider the xkcd on automation [1] and programmers' obsession with screen real estate. Why do we work so hard to eliminate distractions while coding? I think this idea that computation/programming is a thing that happens through a window into the world of computing is one of the major concepts of our time that will be laughed at in the future. Solving HCI is (imho) one of the most important problems of our time. 1 - https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/
lm28469 7y ago
afaik it's more about brain to brain interface. I can vividly imagine an horse eating grass in a field next to a river with a sunset in the background, but unless I paint it I have no way to make you see the same thing, and even if I do paint it it won't be a 1:1 representation. Another example would be feelings, describing love, fear, anger is almost impossible by words. I can also think about sharing dreams, memories, with sounds/scents/&c. I'm not a huge fan of the thing, I'd probably never get one myself, but I see the potential real use cases.
- JabavuAdams 7y ago
  It'll be interesting to see how things like that play out, once we have finer-grained read/write than we do now. Your eyes aren't cameras, and your memories aren't recordings of the outside world. So if you try to broadcast your mental image of a horse, imagine some extremely lossy compression where the recipient has different horse emojis. Your thinking of a horse in a scene may render to their image of a horse in a scene.
seniorsassycat 7y ago
Not at a desk and keyboard, but on the phone? Im excited for brain computer interface to liberate software development from the desk. I like to walk and think but today I have to sit at a computer to implement and verify my ideas. With a bci I could do more than theorize. I'm also excited offload mathematics to a computer.
wiggler00m 7y ago
I don't feel like my ability to interface with the computer is a major bottleneck for me. If I'm writing code, for example, my typing speed is really not a factor. Even typing this very short comment, I paused several times to think of how to phrase things. It feels like a huge rate limiting factor for me. Even typing 2x as fast would be a phenomenal improvement. Speaking is even worse though. Communicating verbally with other humans is frustratingly slow and inaccurate. A new non-verbal means to communicate would enable us to understand others faster and better. This would solve a lot of problems immediately that arise from our inability to understand others or the amount of time it takes to arrive at understanding.
consumer451 7y ago
This is not just a neural keyboard. They are also working on write ability to the brain. I am a laymen, and this is far off, but imagine being able to access all of the docs for a given language... You might think: “what are the params for that function?” That question would be detected, the answer found online, and would be presented to you as a “memory.”

by datpuz 7y ago

GuiA 7y ago

Obviously this is a very personal thing, but that is not the case for me. I often can “see” entire chunks of code in my head, and typing out those 20 lines ends up feeling slow and frustrating. Of course that’s not systematically the case - in many instances, I am thinking as I am writing the code. But for many straightforward control functions, tests, constructors/destructors, etc. the keyboard absolutely feels like a bottleneck. (There is the orthogonal debate that perhaps a better language would allow me to express more concisely these things that feel straightforward)

cambalache 7y ago
For me too. Something like auto-completion for the brain. Not in the "let me complete this command/file name for you" But in the "let me write immediately and correctly the 20 lines of code for the exact procedure you think you need and you just thought in a second". I know it sounds like it is impossible now, but who knows? Maybe it will start with some macros for the brain.
- youareostriches 7y ago
  That might not always be possible. Sometimes I don’t know the full definition of the function upfront; I have to discover/invent it one line at a time and can’t do that without pausing and thinking about the line I just wrote.
edna314 7y ago
I know exactly what kind of frustration you mean. I think this frustration often comes about, because writing code up is a first quality control and it might seem unnecessary for straight forward stuff to be quality controlled. While spending less work on trivial stuff seems reasonable, if I do introduce a bug in trivial code it will be harder to track it down, because I will always first check whether or not all the tricky parts work. On top of that you indirectly incentivize yourself for thinking something is trivial, because it would mean less work and somehow my brain is very good at tricking me into doing less work in situations where obviously more work is required. So, even if it was possible to paste code from the brain I would recommend reading it again carefully and then the speed advantages are gone. The only situation where you wouldn’t need it are really repetitive tasks, but in these situations you can have macros/snippets.

moab 7y ago

Even if the speed is identical to how fast you are thinking of words to type, there are plenty of applications (prevent RSI, accessibility for amputees).

m463 7y ago

I've always thought riding a motorcycle is sometimes hard to do because holding onto the bike is at odds with working the controls because both use your hands and feet. Tasks along these lines would be a great match for better computer interfaces.

robgibbons 7y ago
You should be gripping your bike mostly with your knees. Also, I think that sense of mechanical coordination is something most motorcyclists actually enjoy.
- m463 7y ago
  That makes it hard to click your heels. To refute your assertion more precisely, there is ample evidence that bikes have hand and foot controls that are frequently modified from the current controls. Some electric bikes move both brakes to the handlebars. Many roadracing motorcycles have added thumb brakes. And I've had plenty of situations on dirtbikes where I can't use to the shifter or rear brake because of silliness like water or mud. And then there's broken levers.

yarg 7y ago

No, but the language certainly is. Imagine a computer interface capable of actualising the conceptual structures that you are imagining. Imagine that this interface had a feedback mechanism simulating a virtual eye allowing you to perceive a full three dimensional rendering of that concept in real time. Now think of an arraylist, think of how it responds to changes, visualise the corner cases. You just wrote the code.

tastroder 7y ago
Can we please not adopt this as a potential use case for this topic though? Real applications look more like this: Imagine a movement. Follow an intense training protocol many times for each possible movement so that the signal processing component actually gets meaningful data it can differentiate and is certain enough that you want to trigger something. After multiple hours of training it might actually get good enough. Input dimensionality for that method would likely be simple action triggers (at least less than a traditional keyboard) instead of a complex concept abstraction. Alternative: Stare at a board of visual stimuli, repeat for a few hours in order to train the system to your brain. Stare at board of visual stimuli again in order to actually use the thing. Again, slow paced and limited input dimensionality. While these invasive models produce better signals than non-invasive BCI, they do not include a feedback mechanism and have far less throughput than using a keyboard. Which is great if you have a medical need for the technology and thus cannot use traditional interfaces, everything else is sci fi. I'm not trying to say that this isn't cool but we should really refrain from painting it as some miracle tech, otherwise we cannot really complain if media adopts that image and misrepresents the whole field again.
- trevyn 7y ago
  Except that Neuralink clearly stated that they have ambitions for all of this, which is unusual for a company developing a medical device. Also, wouldn’t the stim abilities count as a feedback mechanism?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    Because Neuralink wasn't started in order to develop a medical device, it was started with an explicit goal to develop a BCI to ultimately improve the cognitive capabilities of healthy humans.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

It definitely is for me. Not all the time - I can type at the speed of thought, and using powerful languages + some completions minimizes the time I spend frustrating over boilerplate - but frequently enough, and especially when conceptualizing and designing something. When designing, even a whiteboard is a bottleneck for me, and so is pen and paper. I can't draw nearly as fast as I need, and then I can't really manipulate the drawings much either. I dream of being able to conjure 2D and 3D diagrams at will, of manipulating them and connecting them together. When focused, I really do feel like I have limited RAM and a very slow I/O for swap. (I seem to suffer from aphantasia. I'm jealous of people who can freely visualize and manipulate stuff in their heads and actually "see" the results.)

CJKerr 7y ago
> I seem to suffer from aphantasia I'm interested for the same reasons - I can't hold much of an image in my head for very long, and being able to persist what I can imagine so I can examine it in detail with my actual eyes would be extremely useful.
- kranner 7y ago
  FWIW Tibetan Buddhism has concentration exercises revolving around visualisation that might help develop this ability. Not sure if it would work for 'true' aphantasia.
  - DennisP 7y ago
    For anyone who wants to look into that, it's called "kasina practice." There's a chapter about it in Daniel Ingram's book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, though he describes it as an advanced technique for people who already have a high degree of concentration. There's also "image streaming" which is similar, and might be more accessible: https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photographers/ https://photographyinsider.info/image-streaming-for-photogra... http://www.winwenger.com/imstream.htm http://www.winwenger.com/imstream.htm http://www.winwenger.com/isbackup.htm http://www.winwenger.com/isbackup.htm

buboard 7y ago

imagine doing that without needing to sit in front or near your computer though

abledon 7y ago

Try 3d modelling in ZBrush

vincentmarle 7y ago

Don’t take the thought = input too literally, your computer input companion will be an AI system, not a keyboard. Just think about how Siri’s AI can mostly understand what you’re saying even with background noise, stuttering, pausing, and coughing when talking. Now imagine talking to Siri at the speed of your thoughts.

schappim 7y ago

It’s not just for coding. Imagine being able to kick off Alfred app [1] workflows from your mind! I actually have looked into this using a Neurosky mind wave, but the signal wasn’t great. I also tried a USB foot peddle. [1] https://www.alfredapp.com/

drawnwren 7y ago

I respectfully disagree. Your first mistake is equating programming to input. Ask yourself how much time you lose to the externalities of coding (ci, context switches, the shell, etc). Consider the xkcd on automation [1] and programmers' obsession with screen real estate. Why do we work so hard to eliminate distractions while coding? I think this idea that computation/programming is a thing that happens through a window into the world of computing is one of the major concepts of our time that will be laughed at in the future. Solving HCI is (imho) one of the most important problems of our time. 1 - https://xkcd.com/1205/ https://xkcd.com/1205/

lm28469 7y ago

afaik it's more about brain to brain interface. I can vividly imagine an horse eating grass in a field next to a river with a sunset in the background, but unless I paint it I have no way to make you see the same thing, and even if I do paint it it won't be a 1:1 representation. Another example would be feelings, describing love, fear, anger is almost impossible by words. I can also think about sharing dreams, memories, with sounds/scents/&c. I'm not a huge fan of the thing, I'd probably never get one myself, but I see the potential real use cases.

JabavuAdams 7y ago
It'll be interesting to see how things like that play out, once we have finer-grained read/write than we do now. Your eyes aren't cameras, and your memories aren't recordings of the outside world. So if you try to broadcast your mental image of a horse, imagine some extremely lossy compression where the recipient has different horse emojis. Your thinking of a horse in a scene may render to their image of a horse in a scene.

seniorsassycat 7y ago

Not at a desk and keyboard, but on the phone? Im excited for brain computer interface to liberate software development from the desk. I like to walk and think but today I have to sit at a computer to implement and verify my ideas. With a bci I could do more than theorize. I'm also excited offload mathematics to a computer.

wiggler00m 7y ago

I don't feel like my ability to interface with the computer is a major bottleneck for me. If I'm writing code, for example, my typing speed is really not a factor. Even typing this very short comment, I paused several times to think of how to phrase things. It feels like a huge rate limiting factor for me. Even typing 2x as fast would be a phenomenal improvement. Speaking is even worse though. Communicating verbally with other humans is frustratingly slow and inaccurate. A new non-verbal means to communicate would enable us to understand others faster and better. This would solve a lot of problems immediately that arise from our inability to understand others or the amount of time it takes to arrive at understanding.

consumer451 7y ago

This is not just a neural keyboard. They are also working on write ability to the brain. I am a laymen, and this is far off, but imagine being able to access all of the docs for a given language... You might think: “what are the params for that function?” That question would be detected, the answer found online, and would be presented to you as a “memory.”