6 ms·

Most profitable movie ever was also most pirated of 2010

36 points by Bud 16y ago

Bud 16y ago
To me, this gives the lie to MPAA. I like things like that. ;)
- vitolds 16y ago
  they would just multiply the number of downloads by the average ticket price and ask for the compensation for the lost revenues caused by piracy.
  - Bud 16y ago
    Well, actually, from what we've all seen, MPAA and RIAA like to ask for much larger penalties than that; sometimes thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, per violation.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    No, that would be much closer to a reasonable penalty than they attempt to incur.
  - daten 16y ago
    What if those downloads were by people who already paid to see the movie in theaters and downloaded it later to watch it again? If they waited for the DVD or Blueray to be released they could watch it an unlimited number of times after paying once. Should each time they watch it at home on a legally purchased DVD be considered a lost theater sale?
- michael_dorfman 16y ago
  Except, it doesn't, really. I imagine that if you surveyed bookstores, you'd find that there is a strong correlation between the best-selling books and the most-shoplifted books. Does this imply that shoplifting should be legal? If you want to argue against the MPAA, you're going to have to find a better argument than this one.
  - pavel_lishin 16y ago
    Did torrent freak imply that sharing movies like this should be legal? I'd say that no matter what the correlation, the penalty for shoplifting shouldn't be $25,000 per book.
  - Bud 16y ago
    Are you drawing a direct analogy between piracy (which does not involve stealing of a physical item that costs money to produce) and shoplifting (which does)? Seems to me that that's a very shaky analogy. There's no way for the bookstore to end up ahead on that transaction. But there ARE multiple ways for a movie studio or recording studio to end up ahead on the transaction that I am highlighting here. I think this is a very strong argument against the MPAA, despite what you say. The MPAA, as we know, likes to claim and pretend that all piracy is evil, that it costs them massive amounts of revenue in all cases, that they cannot possibly survive as an industry in a world where piracy exists. These claims are far from proven; some would say they are ludicrous.
    - tvon 16y ago
      > Seems to me that that's a very shaky analogy. You let that straw man live for all of a millisecond before you struck him down, you cruel bastard.
    - gmjosack 16y ago
      Is it not possible that the shoplifter raves about the book to all their friends and they go buy copies from the store thus ending up ahead? That's the same reasoning I've seen FOR piracy of digital content. I know it's not a good analogy, but both situations are possible. Doesn't make shoplifting or piracy right.
    - sigzero 16y ago
      All piracy is evil. That is why it is called "piracy". It is theft pure and simple.
      - Fargren 16y ago
trotsky 16y ago
We can all agree that pretty much every movie is pirated to some degree, correct? So then it's just a discussion of how popular it was to pirate the content. Most popular for the year at the box office has a strong chance of being the most popular for the year on bittorrent. What made it the biggest earner? Popular + 3d novelty + increased 3d ticket prices. It seems obvious that piracy must reduce income to at least some degree. If TF was trying to make any kind of serious argument they'd have to be able to point at a similarly popular movie that wasn't pirated at all and show it didn't do significantly better. Since everything gets (heavily) pirated, we have nothing to compare it to.
- Bud 16y ago
  You might find it obvious that piracy must reduce income, but I don't think that's obvious at all. I don't pretend to know one way or the other. I think it's approximately just as likely that, at least in some cases, piracy can and has INCREASED income, by increasing hype and interest in a given movie or recording, which drives more awareness of it, which then eventually leads to some sales. Anecdotally, speaking only for myself, I'll admit to having pirated some media, gotten very interested, and then purchased that same media, either to reward the creators, or because I wanted a legit copy or a higher-quality copy, etc. I've also pirated some media, gotten interested, and then recommended it to many others, some of whom have then purchased it. Why do you think it's obvious that piracy will always reduce income?
  - gmjosack 16y ago
    I can't say whether pirating media will lose or gain money for the studios/producers/etc. but I know one thing for sure. You are not entitled to that media and if you don't like the methods in which these studios provide it then your only legal option is to not consume it. I'm over peoples use of the same tired excuses to justify piracy.
    - Bud 16y ago
      I'd draw a distinction between trying to "justify" piracy, which I am not trying to do, and pointing out that the MPAA's anti-piracy arguments are ludicrous and that their proposed penalties are massive overkill, which is closer to my actual point. I have no disagreement with your point that nobody is "entitled" to pirate anything.
sukuriant 16y ago
While the most profitable movie was the most pirated, if you'll notice, the second most pirated movie was far from the second most grossing movie. I would like to have seen a more consistent correlation for pirating vs grossing, but second place breaks the trend.
- getonit 16y ago
  Exceptions don't break trends, they break rules. Claiming a trend is not the same as claiming a rule.
EGreg 16y ago
How come people can pirate Chuck Norris movies, given what they say about him? It seems impossible. Chuck Norris doesn't type, he thinks. And the internet comes together. You know the stuxnet worm? That was chuck norris randomly mashing some keys.
quanticle 16y ago
In other news, the most popular car is also the most stolen one. I'm not trying to draw a comparison between piracy and theft, but is this article telling us anything other than popular things are, well, popular?
- sigzero 16y ago
  No...but piracy IS theft none the less.
  - Bud 16y ago
    Is it? Legally, that does not appear to be the case, at least not yet.
  - rorrr 16y ago
    It's as much theft as recording something on a VCR and giving a tape to your friend.
  - kbutler 16y ago
    > No...but piracy IS theft none the less. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." (English Theft Act 1968 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft) "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, " http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html "copyright infringement" != "theft" kb
- rorrr 16y ago
  Also the fact that Avatar can only truly be appreciated in 3D. I don't see a reason to pirate it, unless you have a 3D TV.
- megaman821 16y ago
AlexMuir 16y ago
Interesting to look at the potential revenue lost through these downloads: Kick Ass - Heavily pirated, not a huge commercial success If everyone who DLed it paid $8 it would have doubled its revenue (and pretty much all of this would have been profit). That's obv impossible to achieve but $2.99 a DL would make a big difference.
- KC8ZKF 16y ago
  It is available as a $3.99 rental download from iTunes and Amazon VOD.
mtw 16y ago
I believe this tells us a lot. The torrent crowd does not represent exactly the moviegoers audience. Lots of downloaders would never go to the movies, even if they crave a movie, it represent different age groups, different behaviours For instance, "Kick Ass" which is largely a film designed for geeks, is #2 even though it only did $98 million at the box office. You've got to wonder why it's ahead of Inception. In the same way, "Alice in Wonderland" did $1.02 billion in 2010 but it's not on the top 10. The torrent demographic is probably the same one that'd jailbreak the iPhone or use Android more than the rest of the society. A demographic immune to marketing, which can sort out good movies from bad perhaps better than the press, but also biased towards a certain type of movies (Kick Ass, action hero etc.)
- klbarry 16y ago
  Certainly not immune from marketing! They are immune from marketing that's not targeted towards them, and perhaps from movie studios, but everyone has their actions affected based on some form of mass persuasion.
BrandonM 16y ago
An interesting note about Kick-Ass is that it's pretty widely known* that director Matthew Vaughn is planning to release an extended cut which has over 18 minutes of deleted material. I loved the movie and would definitely purchase an extended cut, but it doesn't make sense to purchase both. So until then, I don't feel too bad about renting it once and then watching a pirated copy. It seems to me that the people who are likely to know about the upcoming extended cut are both (1) fans of the film and (2) likely to know how to get a movie via torrents. I'm betting that in the case of Kick-Ass, there is a large source of revenue that is currently untapped pending the release of the extended cut. This could certainly be a contributing factor in the abnormally ratio of downloaded copies vs. revenue. * at least within a more technical demographic. See https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kick-Ass_%28film%29#Home_media https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kick-Ass_%28f... In an interview Matthew Vaughn said, "There is about 18 minutes of [deleted] footage, which is really good stuff. If the film is a hit, I'll do an extended cut."
thezilch 16y ago
I'd be interested to see the gross effects on Media (DVD and Blu-ray) gross, in addition to the Box Office gross, in this comparison. Anyone know where one could find those numbers? I would think that BitTorrent downloads would have more of an impact on Media purchases than Box Office purchases.

36 points by Bud 16y ago

Bud 16y ago

To me, this gives the lie to MPAA. I like things like that. ;)

vitolds 16y ago
they would just multiply the number of downloads by the average ticket price and ask for the compensation for the lost revenues caused by piracy.
- Bud 16y ago
  Well, actually, from what we've all seen, MPAA and RIAA like to ask for much larger penalties than that; sometimes thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, per violation.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  No, that would be much closer to a reasonable penalty than they attempt to incur.
- daten 16y ago
  What if those downloads were by people who already paid to see the movie in theaters and downloaded it later to watch it again? If they waited for the DVD or Blueray to be released they could watch it an unlimited number of times after paying once. Should each time they watch it at home on a legally purchased DVD be considered a lost theater sale?
michael_dorfman 16y ago
Except, it doesn't, really. I imagine that if you surveyed bookstores, you'd find that there is a strong correlation between the best-selling books and the most-shoplifted books. Does this imply that shoplifting should be legal? If you want to argue against the MPAA, you're going to have to find a better argument than this one.
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  Did torrent freak imply that sharing movies like this should be legal? I'd say that no matter what the correlation, the penalty for shoplifting shouldn't be $25,000 per book.
- Bud 16y ago
  Are you drawing a direct analogy between piracy (which does not involve stealing of a physical item that costs money to produce) and shoplifting (which does)? Seems to me that that's a very shaky analogy. There's no way for the bookstore to end up ahead on that transaction. But there ARE multiple ways for a movie studio or recording studio to end up ahead on the transaction that I am highlighting here. I think this is a very strong argument against the MPAA, despite what you say. The MPAA, as we know, likes to claim and pretend that all piracy is evil, that it costs them massive amounts of revenue in all cases, that they cannot possibly survive as an industry in a world where piracy exists. These claims are far from proven; some would say they are ludicrous.
  - tvon 16y ago
    > Seems to me that that's a very shaky analogy. You let that straw man live for all of a millisecond before you struck him down, you cruel bastard.
  - gmjosack 16y ago
    Is it not possible that the shoplifter raves about the book to all their friends and they go buy copies from the store thus ending up ahead? That's the same reasoning I've seen FOR piracy of digital content. I know it's not a good analogy, but both situations are possible. Doesn't make shoplifting or piracy right.
  - sigzero 16y ago
    All piracy is evil. That is why it is called "piracy". It is theft pure and simple.
    - Fargren 16y ago

trotsky 16y ago

We can all agree that pretty much every movie is pirated to some degree, correct? So then it's just a discussion of how popular it was to pirate the content. Most popular for the year at the box office has a strong chance of being the most popular for the year on bittorrent. What made it the biggest earner? Popular + 3d novelty + increased 3d ticket prices. It seems obvious that piracy must reduce income to at least some degree. If TF was trying to make any kind of serious argument they'd have to be able to point at a similarly popular movie that wasn't pirated at all and show it didn't do significantly better. Since everything gets (heavily) pirated, we have nothing to compare it to.

Bud 16y ago
You might find it obvious that piracy must reduce income, but I don't think that's obvious at all. I don't pretend to know one way or the other. I think it's approximately just as likely that, at least in some cases, piracy can and has INCREASED income, by increasing hype and interest in a given movie or recording, which drives more awareness of it, which then eventually leads to some sales. Anecdotally, speaking only for myself, I'll admit to having pirated some media, gotten very interested, and then purchased that same media, either to reward the creators, or because I wanted a legit copy or a higher-quality copy, etc. I've also pirated some media, gotten interested, and then recommended it to many others, some of whom have then purchased it. Why do you think it's obvious that piracy will always reduce income?
- gmjosack 16y ago
  I can't say whether pirating media will lose or gain money for the studios/producers/etc. but I know one thing for sure. You are not entitled to that media and if you don't like the methods in which these studios provide it then your only legal option is to not consume it. I'm over peoples use of the same tired excuses to justify piracy.
  - Bud 16y ago
    I'd draw a distinction between trying to "justify" piracy, which I am not trying to do, and pointing out that the MPAA's anti-piracy arguments are ludicrous and that their proposed penalties are massive overkill, which is closer to my actual point. I have no disagreement with your point that nobody is "entitled" to pirate anything.

sukuriant 16y ago

While the most profitable movie was the most pirated, if you'll notice, the second most pirated movie was far from the second most grossing movie. I would like to have seen a more consistent correlation for pirating vs grossing, but second place breaks the trend.

getonit 16y ago
Exceptions don't break trends, they break rules. Claiming a trend is not the same as claiming a rule.

EGreg 16y ago

How come people can pirate Chuck Norris movies, given what they say about him? It seems impossible. Chuck Norris doesn't type, he thinks. And the internet comes together. You know the stuxnet worm? That was chuck norris randomly mashing some keys.

quanticle 16y ago

In other news, the most popular car is also the most stolen one. I'm not trying to draw a comparison between piracy and theft, but is this article telling us anything other than popular things are, well, popular?

sigzero 16y ago
No...but piracy IS theft none the less.
- Bud 16y ago
  Is it? Legally, that does not appear to be the case, at least not yet.
- rorrr 16y ago
  It's as much theft as recording something on a VCR and giving a tape to your friend.
- kbutler 16y ago
  > No...but piracy IS theft none the less. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." (English Theft Act 1968 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft) "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, " http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html "copyright infringement" != "theft" kb
rorrr 16y ago
Also the fact that Avatar can only truly be appreciated in 3D. I don't see a reason to pirate it, unless you have a 3D TV.
megaman821 16y ago

AlexMuir 16y ago

Interesting to look at the potential revenue lost through these downloads: Kick Ass - Heavily pirated, not a huge commercial success If everyone who DLed it paid $8 it would have doubled its revenue (and pretty much all of this would have been profit). That's obv impossible to achieve but $2.99 a DL would make a big difference.

KC8ZKF 16y ago
It is available as a $3.99 rental download from iTunes and Amazon VOD.

mtw 16y ago

I believe this tells us a lot. The torrent crowd does not represent exactly the moviegoers audience. Lots of downloaders would never go to the movies, even if they crave a movie, it represent different age groups, different behaviours For instance, "Kick Ass" which is largely a film designed for geeks, is #2 even though it only did $98 million at the box office. You've got to wonder why it's ahead of Inception. In the same way, "Alice in Wonderland" did $1.02 billion in 2010 but it's not on the top 10. The torrent demographic is probably the same one that'd jailbreak the iPhone or use Android more than the rest of the society. A demographic immune to marketing, which can sort out good movies from bad perhaps better than the press, but also biased towards a certain type of movies (Kick Ass, action hero etc.)

klbarry 16y ago
Certainly not immune from marketing! They are immune from marketing that's not targeted towards them, and perhaps from movie studios, but everyone has their actions affected based on some form of mass persuasion.

BrandonM 16y ago

An interesting note about Kick-Ass is that it's pretty widely known* that director Matthew Vaughn is planning to release an extended cut which has over 18 minutes of deleted material. I loved the movie and would definitely purchase an extended cut, but it doesn't make sense to purchase both. So until then, I don't feel too bad about renting it once and then watching a pirated copy. It seems to me that the people who are likely to know about the upcoming extended cut are both (1) fans of the film and (2) likely to know how to get a movie via torrents. I'm betting that in the case of Kick-Ass, there is a large source of revenue that is currently untapped pending the release of the extended cut. This could certainly be a contributing factor in the abnormally ratio of downloaded copies vs. revenue. * at least within a more technical demographic. See https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kick-Ass_%28film%29#Home_media https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kick-Ass_%28f... In an interview Matthew Vaughn said, "There is about 18 minutes of [deleted] footage, which is really good stuff. If the film is a hit, I'll do an extended cut."

thezilch 16y ago

I'd be interested to see the gross effects on Media (DVD and Blu-ray) gross, in addition to the Box Office gross, in this comparison. Anyone know where one could find those numbers? I would think that BitTorrent downloads would have more of an impact on Media purchases than Box Office purchases.