8 ms·

What I find interesting is how vigorously Tesla denies everything, always, even when they're clearly wrong. They lose a lot of credibility that way; I wonder if

by Lazare 7y ago

What I find interesting is how vigorously Tesla denies everything, always, even when they're clearly wrong. They lose a lot of credibility that way; I wonder if Musk[1] realises that if he admitted the things Tesla is obviously doing wrong, he might have a hope of convincing people about the ones they're not obviously doing wrong? And it's especially odd because so much of the article is just a bunch of nothing, but Tesla makes it newsworthy by denying everything. And 50 cents says Musk has a team analysing the photos right now to try and track down the employees who took them. ...to ensure they're fired and/or sued, of course; obviously Tesla would never see people who had identified problems as a potentially valuable resource. There's a lot more interesting details if you dig into it, but wikipedia has a pretty good summary of the Toyota Production System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System). An interesting contrast, perhaps. [1]: I mean, we all know who's behind this PR strategy, right?

SEJeff 7y ago
I'm not defending Musk at all, but if those pictures were leaked from a Tesla employee, they're in breach of their NDA, a legally binding contract. Why wouldn't they go after someone breaching their NDA? I get that there are whistleblower protections and whatnot, but that is for lawyers and judges to decide. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a team analysing those photos.
- angstrom 7y ago
  It's also worth remembering that innovations in manufacturing are quite often 'short cuts' that have the same or better result with less process.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    Agreed. I do wonder why people are downvoting me for pointing out the truth though. Breach of a legally binding contract is grounds for a civil lawsuit. This is how the country works!
    - bogonic 7y ago
      I wonder why you can't understand that actions have consequences; and that if a company sues employees who resort to an external escalation path to address problems, that some customers will dislike and distrust that company in the future.
      - SEJeff 7y ago
        I never said any of that, and am assuming you signed up for this throw away assuming I'd downvote you, or you're afraid of using your real account for some stupid reason? I said simply that if someone signs a legal contract and one side breaks it, the other party is well within their bounds to investigate it and potentially to litigate it as well. This is how contracts work unless they're deemed to break a law. Then a judge will invalidate it. Do I think suing employees is good for business, or for a public image? No, I think it is terrible. You're the one who tried to put words into my mouth I never once stated.
        bogonic 7y ago
        You asked, and I quote: "Why wouldn't they go after someone breaching their NDA?" If this was a rhetorical assertion that there is no reason for Tesla not to sue, then you should admit that you took the position that I described, you should stop pretending that I put words in your mouth, and you should apologize to me for your feigned outrage. If you were actually asking why Tesla wouldn't use every legal tool available to them, then you should thank me for providing you with a thoughtful answer, and then apologize for attacking me and my character. I eagerly await your sincere apology.
        SEJeff 7y ago
        You did an excellent job beating up that strawman, but I'm not biting. I'm just amused you had to use a throw away to do it. Why not use your main?
diegocg 7y ago
"The most fundamental difference is thinking about the factory really as a product, as a quite vertically integrated product," said Musk. "It's treating it as more of an engineering and a technical problem as well," added Chief Technical Officer J.B. Straubel. "Which is the Toyota Production System," replied Johnson. "Yeah, we don't think so," countered Musk.
- almost_usual 7y ago
  The fact his ego is this big is amazing. I would be shocked if I saw one vehicle on the road today manufactured by Tesla in thirty years.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - et2o 7y ago
    You'd have to ignore the substantial progress Tesla has made to date against overwhelming odds. Will return to this in 30 years!
    - BuckRogers 7y ago
      Don't need to, they already blew the doors off all the naysayers since they were founded. Waiting 30 more years is unnecessary, they've more than proven themselves. These people who insist on further and further benchmarks have already been made out to be fools.
- la_barba 7y ago
  What purpose does selectively quoting an article serve? I don't see the point (if any) you're making here.
  - justin66 7y ago
    The quote is a representative sample of the article, an article which is illustrative of Musk's apparent disinterest in (or ignorance of) the Toyota Production System. I've never seen a Musk quote that clearly demonstrates he has any idea how TPS works or what he is really competing against.
sombremesa 7y ago
What else do you expect from a company where an investor retconned himself into being a founder, including in the Wikipedia entry?
- gjm11 7y ago
  The Wikipedia "Tesla, Inc." and "History of Tesla, Inc." pages both say explicitly that the company was founded in July 2003 by two other people and that Musk joined in February 2004. Is that wrong? If not, what retconning do you see on Wikipedia?
  - HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
    No that's correct. OP is talking bs.
    - kosievdmerwe 7y ago
      Well why is Musk listed as a Founder in the side bar then? Here's a quote from the article: "Eberhard and Tarpenning were the original founders and incorporated Tesla, while Musk, Straubel and Wright joined in a Series A round later on. A lawsuit settlement agreed to by Eberhard and Tesla in September 2009 allows all five to call themselves founders."
      - greglindahl 7y ago
        Founder is a label assigned by a company, it doesn't have the absolute meaning you appear to think it has. Two of the three Silicon Valley startups I've founded have founders who were not full-time on day zero.
        kosievdmerwe 7y ago
        I'm not sure why you mention "full-time". A founder is someone involved from day zero or at least before and up to incorporation. Whether they spend time or money doesn't matter. What matters is when If you're talking about people who have plans to join the startup at day zero but will only manage it a month or so after founding due to logistics, then it's more interesting. It gets more debatable. However, Musk isn't a founder since he was not involved until the series A as far as I'm aware. Despite what Tesla and Eberhard agreed to, I don't think he's a founder.
travisoneill1 7y ago
Have you considered that they vigorously deny things because they are not true? If even a fraction of the negative things about Tesla in the press were true then their cars would be falling apart on the streets and the company would be failing from low demand. In reality buyers love the cars and they just broke their delivery record again last quarter.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Teslas do have poor reliability: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... And Tesla has cut corners with engineering decisions: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows... Musk wants Tesla to out-Toyota Toyota, but it hasn't yet and probably won't: https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th... https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26955/inside-toyotas-takaoka-2-line-the-most-flexible-line-in-the-world https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26955/inside-toyotas-takaoka-2... There's no point in ignoring Tesla's problems. It's better to be objective about it. If you want to buy a Tesla you should go in clear-eyed about the reliability issues.
  - tzakrajs 7y ago
    And that’s not even talking about how many cars they have bricked with over the air updates (probably thousands) leaving their owners stranded in the morning.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      Source? I've had this happen to me once, but it was due to a battery fault (in the 12V battery amusingly, not the main battery that powers the car) stemming from some arse in a Jeep that hit me the week prior. Tesla sent a "ranger" out who fixed it in my garage in a few hours. Try that with your toyota!
natch 7y ago
I don’t see how you get “vigorous denial” from the mild words Tesla said in its response. It’s like we didn’t read the same article. And you amp it up with “always”... is that really necessary? Your comment is adding heat and noise, not much else.
- hanniabu 7y ago
  Bingo, it seems people often don't consider that these reports could be false. There's a LOT of money in shorting stocks, especially Tesla stock. Because of this it's hard to go to any tech related news site and not see an article about them being slandered. There's constantly huge campaigns going on to FUD Tesla for profit. I'm not saying that everything negative about Tesla is false, but I am in no way going to believe that it's all true.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    When your/Tesla/supporters response is basically "... the shorts!" as the main and salient point of the rebuttal rather than "wrong, and here's why...", it's equally hard to assume your objectivity, too.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
Just so you know, I don't find your use of [1] useful or meaningful in your comment. I would have rather simply wrote the comment "I mean..." after the sentence about Musk.

by Lazare 7y ago

SEJeff 7y ago

I'm not defending Musk at all, but if those pictures were leaked from a Tesla employee, they're in breach of their NDA, a legally binding contract. Why wouldn't they go after someone breaching their NDA? I get that there are whistleblower protections and whatnot, but that is for lawyers and judges to decide. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a team analysing those photos.

angstrom 7y ago
It's also worth remembering that innovations in manufacturing are quite often 'short cuts' that have the same or better result with less process.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  Agreed. I do wonder why people are downvoting me for pointing out the truth though. Breach of a legally binding contract is grounds for a civil lawsuit. This is how the country works!
  - bogonic 7y ago
    I wonder why you can't understand that actions have consequences; and that if a company sues employees who resort to an external escalation path to address problems, that some customers will dislike and distrust that company in the future.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      I never said any of that, and am assuming you signed up for this throw away assuming I'd downvote you, or you're afraid of using your real account for some stupid reason? I said simply that if someone signs a legal contract and one side breaks it, the other party is well within their bounds to investigate it and potentially to litigate it as well. This is how contracts work unless they're deemed to break a law. Then a judge will invalidate it. Do I think suing employees is good for business, or for a public image? No, I think it is terrible. You're the one who tried to put words into my mouth I never once stated.
      - bogonic 7y ago
        You asked, and I quote: "Why wouldn't they go after someone breaching their NDA?" If this was a rhetorical assertion that there is no reason for Tesla not to sue, then you should admit that you took the position that I described, you should stop pretending that I put words in your mouth, and you should apologize to me for your feigned outrage. If you were actually asking why Tesla wouldn't use every legal tool available to them, then you should thank me for providing you with a thoughtful answer, and then apologize for attacking me and my character. I eagerly await your sincere apology.
        SEJeff 7y ago
        You did an excellent job beating up that strawman, but I'm not biting. I'm just amused you had to use a throw away to do it. Why not use your main?

diegocg 7y ago

"The most fundamental difference is thinking about the factory really as a product, as a quite vertically integrated product," said Musk. "It's treating it as more of an engineering and a technical problem as well," added Chief Technical Officer J.B. Straubel. "Which is the Toyota Production System," replied Johnson. "Yeah, we don't think so," countered Musk.

almost_usual 7y ago
The fact his ego is this big is amazing. I would be shocked if I saw one vehicle on the road today manufactured by Tesla in thirty years.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- et2o 7y ago
  You'd have to ignore the substantial progress Tesla has made to date against overwhelming odds. Will return to this in 30 years!
  - BuckRogers 7y ago
    Don't need to, they already blew the doors off all the naysayers since they were founded. Waiting 30 more years is unnecessary, they've more than proven themselves. These people who insist on further and further benchmarks have already been made out to be fools.
la_barba 7y ago
What purpose does selectively quoting an article serve? I don't see the point (if any) you're making here.
- justin66 7y ago
  The quote is a representative sample of the article, an article which is illustrative of Musk's apparent disinterest in (or ignorance of) the Toyota Production System. I've never seen a Musk quote that clearly demonstrates he has any idea how TPS works or what he is really competing against.

sombremesa 7y ago

What else do you expect from a company where an investor retconned himself into being a founder, including in the Wikipedia entry?

gjm11 7y ago
The Wikipedia "Tesla, Inc." and "History of Tesla, Inc." pages both say explicitly that the company was founded in July 2003 by two other people and that Musk joined in February 2004. Is that wrong? If not, what retconning do you see on Wikipedia?
- HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
  No that's correct. OP is talking bs.
  - kosievdmerwe 7y ago
    Well why is Musk listed as a Founder in the side bar then? Here's a quote from the article: "Eberhard and Tarpenning were the original founders and incorporated Tesla, while Musk, Straubel and Wright joined in a Series A round later on. A lawsuit settlement agreed to by Eberhard and Tesla in September 2009 allows all five to call themselves founders."
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      Founder is a label assigned by a company, it doesn't have the absolute meaning you appear to think it has. Two of the three Silicon Valley startups I've founded have founders who were not full-time on day zero.
      - kosievdmerwe 7y ago
        I'm not sure why you mention "full-time". A founder is someone involved from day zero or at least before and up to incorporation. Whether they spend time or money doesn't matter. What matters is when If you're talking about people who have plans to join the startup at day zero but will only manage it a month or so after founding due to logistics, then it's more interesting. It gets more debatable. However, Musk isn't a founder since he was not involved until the series A as far as I'm aware. Despite what Tesla and Eberhard agreed to, I don't think he's a founder.

travisoneill1 7y ago

Have you considered that they vigorously deny things because they are not true? If even a fraction of the negative things about Tesla in the press were true then their cars would be falling apart on the streets and the company would be failing from low demand. In reality buyers love the cars and they just broke their delivery record again last quarter.

clouddrover 7y ago
Teslas do have poor reliability: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... And Tesla has cut corners with engineering decisions: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows... Musk wants Tesla to out-Toyota Toyota, but it hasn't yet and probably won't: https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th... https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26955/inside-toyotas-takaoka-2-line-the-most-flexible-line-in-the-world https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26955/inside-toyotas-takaoka-2... There's no point in ignoring Tesla's problems. It's better to be objective about it. If you want to buy a Tesla you should go in clear-eyed about the reliability issues.
- tzakrajs 7y ago
  And that’s not even talking about how many cars they have bricked with over the air updates (probably thousands) leaving their owners stranded in the morning.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    Source? I've had this happen to me once, but it was due to a battery fault (in the 12V battery amusingly, not the main battery that powers the car) stemming from some arse in a Jeep that hit me the week prior. Tesla sent a "ranger" out who fixed it in my garage in a few hours. Try that with your toyota!

natch 7y ago

I don’t see how you get “vigorous denial” from the mild words Tesla said in its response. It’s like we didn’t read the same article. And you amp it up with “always”... is that really necessary? Your comment is adding heat and noise, not much else.

hanniabu 7y ago
Bingo, it seems people often don't consider that these reports could be false. There's a LOT of money in shorting stocks, especially Tesla stock. Because of this it's hard to go to any tech related news site and not see an article about them being slandered. There's constantly huge campaigns going on to FUD Tesla for profit. I'm not saying that everything negative about Tesla is false, but I am in no way going to believe that it's all true.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  When your/Tesla/supporters response is basically "... the shorts!" as the main and salient point of the rebuttal rather than "wrong, and here's why...", it's equally hard to assume your objectivity, too.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

Just so you know, I don't find your use of [1] useful or meaningful in your comment. I would have rather simply wrote the comment "I mean..." after the sentence about Musk.