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What concerns me is that shortcuts in industrial manufacturing processes are often directly detrimental or even fatal to workers. Heavy industry uses toxic chem

What concerns me is that shortcuts in industrial manufacturing processes are often directly detrimental or even fatal to workers. Heavy industry uses toxic chemicals and large, powerful machinery; cutting corners around those things is actively dangerous. Using some electrical tape in places where you'd otherwise use shrink tubing is not a big deal. But like you said, trying to cut corners on a finished hardware design sounds orders of magnitude harder than doing so on software, and I worry about what else workers are being forced to do to cover for management's failures. [edit] added word "else" for clarity

noonespecial 7y ago
>Using some electrical tape in places where you'd otherwise use shrink tubing is not a big deal. The article says that they used electrical tape from Walmart on a bracket that holds the cameras for Autopilot. I've used some Walmart etape... that's a big deal.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  No, the article says "this photo shows tape applied to a segment of a white plastic housing where it holds “triple cam” connections in place". It's a wiring harness, not a camera mount.
- Datenstrom 7y ago
  I do not know about cars but using electrical tape on aircraft is absolutely not allowed. Unlike in most electronics vehicles deal with vibration, improper wire routing will cause chafing against any surface it touches over time causing exposed wires and shorts in the best case. Zip ties are obviously not allowed because they would cause chafing themselves, electrical tape will likely come come undone after some years. I have seen cheap electrical tape do so before with age. I can't imagine cars do not deal with a level of vibration that would cause this.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    I've seen plenty of factory installed electrical tape in engine bays of cars. It's not uncommon. That being said the circumstances around the usage in the article are very different and just because electrical tape can be safe when used properly doesn't mean its safe in the case reported used at Tesla.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    I know the internet really loves muh aerospace standards but there's reasons vehicles that travel in two dimensions don't need to abide by those standards. It would be prohibitively expensive and overkill most of the time. There's tons of stuff that isn't allowed on aircraft and a lot of it traces back to being able to verify/inspect what was done and allowing a chain of custody so problems can be traced to the source. This isn't as necessary for two dimensional vehicles that only last 20yr. Zip ties are mostly not allowed for QC reasons. Some people will crank them tight and some won't. They won't really cause much chafing if properly installed because the wires shouldn't be moving enough to chafe. There's tons and tons and tons of aftermarket wiring in work trucks out there that's been installed with zip ties and it's not any less reliable than OEM wiring. All but the worst electrical tape will take 20+yr to come apart even in an automotive environment. It should take longer on an EV that isn't going to have as many sources of oil leaks in old age. I still wouldn't want to use it for anything other than bundling wires though. As an aside, I've worked on aircraft (GA) and on cars and your average car sees more vibration but obviously if things fall apart in the air it's a bigger deal.
    - noonespecial 7y ago
      20 years? I've seen what happens to walmart electrical tape in a single summer in a car in the sun. And its been pointed out that the tape doesn't actually hold the "triple-cam" in place, just the wire connectors (implying this is less of problem?). If it were my car, (and its so unimportant) than I'd vastly prefer nothing over Walmart tape. The tape is not going to do anything and its going to make a sticky mess. Tesla apologetics aside, this is not ok and I'm sticking to that.
    - Datenstrom 7y ago
ajross 7y ago
There's absolutely no such contention in the linked article though. It's about tape. I mean, yeah, they could be doing all kinds of crazy things. But so could anyone else who needs to ship products on tight schedules. Why single out Tesla here? I mean, would you react this way if it turned out Mazda or Audi was taping down some misassembled parts?
- reitzensteinm 7y ago
  Yes. This "you're singling Tesla out" persecution complex is getting old. Tesla is an amazing company in many ways, but there's plenty of bad to go along with the good.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Isn't it telling that folks have Tesla under a microscope at all?
    - stonogo 7y ago
      No. All automakers get scrutinized by someone. What's telling is your overreaction to it.
      - ajross 7y ago
        > All automakers get scrutinized by someone. Citation needed. I've never seen a story this thin (one photo of tape holding down a nonstructural plastic housing) run about another manufacturer. You have a counterexample?
        bildung 7y ago
        In the thread above CNBC got accused of a hidden agenda against Tesla, because their reporting is critical. These are the headlines for Toyota (Google with "site:cnbc.com toyota"): * Toyota plans to recall 1 million hybrid models over wiring issue * Toyota recalls 70,000 vehicles to replace air bag inflators - CNBC.com * Toyota operating profit growth to drop this year on revenue slip * Toyota is making high-performance versions of the Camry and Avalon * Toyota struggles to save breakthrough Prius hybrid - CNBC.com * Toyota and SoftBank are teaming up to target self-driving car services * 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser review - CNBC.com * Toyota recalls 2.4 million hybrids due to stalling problems - CNBC.com
tyingq 7y ago
Can confirm. I was an electronic tech in US government work in the 1980's. We routinely used MEK (methyl ethyl keytones) to clean circuit boards, with zero protections. We got these weird requests to confirm we did this of our own free will in the late 80's. Then, in the 2000's, similarly weird requests to confirm we "knew the risks". If you complied, you were guaranteed VA coverage. Anectodally, strange rates of lower gastric, bladder, and other carcinomas in in my peer group.
- dymk 7y ago
  Same thing happened to a lot of workers who worked with Asbestos. My dad, his brother, many of their friends got a few thousand bucks in the 80s if they agreed to never sue. A lot of them died a decade or so later from mesothelioma.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    I'm especially disappointed with my case, as organic solvents are almost all historically known aggressive carcinogens. This was not a case of "not knowing", even the 80's. I suspect similar for asbestos, coal dust, etc in that time period.
    - dymk 7y ago
      Asbestos was a known harmful substance since at least 1970, but it took until 1989 to fully ban it. A lot of companies knew the risks, but didn’t care, which is why you see 6 figure lawsuits still happening, finding the companies guilty of negligence. Their defense is “we didn’t know!”, but luckily judges are seeing through that.
      - alexpotato 7y ago
        I found this out when my mom had asbestos in her house a couple years ago: In cities, OUTDOOR asbestos levels can be higher than indoor level simply because asbestos is still legal to use in car brakes. Since so many cars still use them and the parts are actively "wearing" due to friction, this releases enough asbestos to up the levels above indoor.
baybal2 7y ago
Their level of automation is way to low for these days. The hazardous work workers do, should not have been done in the first place. Robotic or semi-auto wiring machines are everywhere in China. They also use zero tooling terminals where possible.
kosievdmerwe 7y ago
They also supposedly left out bolts/nuts: > Five people who work or worked in the tent in 2019 said they would frequently pass cars down the line that they knew were missing a few bolts, nuts or lugs, all in the name of saving time. With other things mentioned under "Other short cuts" too

noonespecial 7y ago

>Using some electrical tape in places where you'd otherwise use shrink tubing is not a big deal. The article says that they used electrical tape from Walmart on a bracket that holds the cameras for Autopilot. I've used some Walmart etape... that's a big deal.

cptskippy 7y ago
No, the article says "this photo shows tape applied to a segment of a white plastic housing where it holds “triple cam” connections in place". It's a wiring harness, not a camera mount.
Datenstrom 7y ago
I do not know about cars but using electrical tape on aircraft is absolutely not allowed. Unlike in most electronics vehicles deal with vibration, improper wire routing will cause chafing against any surface it touches over time causing exposed wires and shorts in the best case. Zip ties are obviously not allowed because they would cause chafing themselves, electrical tape will likely come come undone after some years. I have seen cheap electrical tape do so before with age. I can't imagine cars do not deal with a level of vibration that would cause this.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  I've seen plenty of factory installed electrical tape in engine bays of cars. It's not uncommon. That being said the circumstances around the usage in the article are very different and just because electrical tape can be safe when used properly doesn't mean its safe in the case reported used at Tesla.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  I know the internet really loves muh aerospace standards but there's reasons vehicles that travel in two dimensions don't need to abide by those standards. It would be prohibitively expensive and overkill most of the time. There's tons of stuff that isn't allowed on aircraft and a lot of it traces back to being able to verify/inspect what was done and allowing a chain of custody so problems can be traced to the source. This isn't as necessary for two dimensional vehicles that only last 20yr. Zip ties are mostly not allowed for QC reasons. Some people will crank them tight and some won't. They won't really cause much chafing if properly installed because the wires shouldn't be moving enough to chafe. There's tons and tons and tons of aftermarket wiring in work trucks out there that's been installed with zip ties and it's not any less reliable than OEM wiring. All but the worst electrical tape will take 20+yr to come apart even in an automotive environment. It should take longer on an EV that isn't going to have as many sources of oil leaks in old age. I still wouldn't want to use it for anything other than bundling wires though. As an aside, I've worked on aircraft (GA) and on cars and your average car sees more vibration but obviously if things fall apart in the air it's a bigger deal.
  - noonespecial 7y ago
    20 years? I've seen what happens to walmart electrical tape in a single summer in a car in the sun. And its been pointed out that the tape doesn't actually hold the "triple-cam" in place, just the wire connectors (implying this is less of problem?). If it were my car, (and its so unimportant) than I'd vastly prefer nothing over Walmart tape. The tape is not going to do anything and its going to make a sticky mess. Tesla apologetics aside, this is not ok and I'm sticking to that.
  - Datenstrom 7y ago

ajross 7y ago

There's absolutely no such contention in the linked article though. It's about tape. I mean, yeah, they could be doing all kinds of crazy things. But so could anyone else who needs to ship products on tight schedules. Why single out Tesla here? I mean, would you react this way if it turned out Mazda or Audi was taping down some misassembled parts?

reitzensteinm 7y ago
Yes. This "you're singling Tesla out" persecution complex is getting old. Tesla is an amazing company in many ways, but there's plenty of bad to go along with the good.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Isn't it telling that folks have Tesla under a microscope at all?
  - stonogo 7y ago
    No. All automakers get scrutinized by someone. What's telling is your overreaction to it.
    - ajross 7y ago
      > All automakers get scrutinized by someone. Citation needed. I've never seen a story this thin (one photo of tape holding down a nonstructural plastic housing) run about another manufacturer. You have a counterexample?
      - bildung 7y ago
        In the thread above CNBC got accused of a hidden agenda against Tesla, because their reporting is critical. These are the headlines for Toyota (Google with "site:cnbc.com toyota"): * Toyota plans to recall 1 million hybrid models over wiring issue * Toyota recalls 70,000 vehicles to replace air bag inflators - CNBC.com * Toyota operating profit growth to drop this year on revenue slip * Toyota is making high-performance versions of the Camry and Avalon * Toyota struggles to save breakthrough Prius hybrid - CNBC.com * Toyota and SoftBank are teaming up to target self-driving car services * 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser review - CNBC.com * Toyota recalls 2.4 million hybrids due to stalling problems - CNBC.com

tyingq 7y ago

Can confirm. I was an electronic tech in US government work in the 1980's. We routinely used MEK (methyl ethyl keytones) to clean circuit boards, with zero protections. We got these weird requests to confirm we did this of our own free will in the late 80's. Then, in the 2000's, similarly weird requests to confirm we "knew the risks". If you complied, you were guaranteed VA coverage. Anectodally, strange rates of lower gastric, bladder, and other carcinomas in in my peer group.

dymk 7y ago
Same thing happened to a lot of workers who worked with Asbestos. My dad, his brother, many of their friends got a few thousand bucks in the 80s if they agreed to never sue. A lot of them died a decade or so later from mesothelioma.
- tyingq 7y ago
  I'm especially disappointed with my case, as organic solvents are almost all historically known aggressive carcinogens. This was not a case of "not knowing", even the 80's. I suspect similar for asbestos, coal dust, etc in that time period.
  - dymk 7y ago
    Asbestos was a known harmful substance since at least 1970, but it took until 1989 to fully ban it. A lot of companies knew the risks, but didn’t care, which is why you see 6 figure lawsuits still happening, finding the companies guilty of negligence. Their defense is “we didn’t know!”, but luckily judges are seeing through that.
    - alexpotato 7y ago
      I found this out when my mom had asbestos in her house a couple years ago: In cities, OUTDOOR asbestos levels can be higher than indoor level simply because asbestos is still legal to use in car brakes. Since so many cars still use them and the parts are actively "wearing" due to friction, this releases enough asbestos to up the levels above indoor.

baybal2 7y ago

Their level of automation is way to low for these days. The hazardous work workers do, should not have been done in the first place. Robotic or semi-auto wiring machines are everywhere in China. They also use zero tooling terminals where possible.

kosievdmerwe 7y ago

They also supposedly left out bolts/nuts: > Five people who work or worked in the tent in 2019 said they would frequently pass cars down the line that they knew were missing a few bolts, nuts or lugs, all in the name of saving time. With other things mentioned under "Other short cuts" too