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Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile
- Firerouge 7y agoWhat's the yellow weapon that they showed in the haul? https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Screen-Shot-2019-07-15-at-12.57.53-PM.png https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Scree...
- skrebbel 7y agoAnyone with more insight into all of this than me who can explain why they went to fight on the Russian side? I mean, there surely were neo-nazis around on both sides of that conflict, right? Just different flavours? I wonder how you pick who to support if your core ideology is that "people different from us are bad".
- willvarfar 7y agoYeah! The Ukrainians had small but vocal numbers of fascist volunteers on _their_ side, and that got a lot of bad press and the Russian side went to great lengths to paint the whole of Ukraine as fascist. So its really surprising they'd have fascists going to the _Russian_ side.
- bayesian_horse 7y agoRussia is funding and supporting several right-wing groups and parties in Europe. The cooperation is based on mutual pursuit of more power.
- simonh 7y agoRussia is selling itself as a counter to liberal, internationalist hegemony in the form of the EU. Ukraine wants to join the EU and is economically supported by the EU and broke away from Russia's political sphere over it, and the alt right hates the EU political project. This makes Russia and the European alt right natural allies.
- Karto 7y agoThat would be a Hollywood version of the ideology. Right extreme groups are quite a tangled mess. Many of these groups in Europe are looking up to Russia (and Poland, and Hungary, and Serbia) right now. Those eastern european countries are perceived as the possible source for a European nationalist renaissance, as they display a strong stance against both european federalism and mass immigration. Obviously, that vision of Eastern European countries' politics is just as oversimplified as Hollywood's neonazism, but the war between Russia and Ukraine has been largely presented by western supporters as a war between nationalism and european blending.
- phaer 7y agoI think those countries stance against liberal ideas like gender equality, lgbt right and so on as well as a rather authoritarian form of government at least in Russia and Hungary might make western European fascists a bit jealous as well.
- ahje 7y agoVery jealous. Russia is simply considered the "good guy", standing up against the perceived oppression from globalism and European federalism. The people of the EU often want to see ourselves as progressive, but we're a very diverse lot and there's a lot of people who would like to take a few steps back in regards to LGBT rights, Pan-Europeanism and multi-culturalism.
- pas 7y agoThe actual popular support [or opposition] for whatever ideas [or against] are usually very different than what strongly consolidated power hierarchies show. (That is in countries where one party gained significant power, eg. in Hungary and Poland.)
- ahje 7y agoOf course. EU citizens, on average, have very little information about what's happening in the eastern parts of Europe, no matter the subject, and since many people dis-trust mainstream media nowadays it's easy to spread one's own narrative and use that for one's own purposes, while ignoring the fact that such expressive freedom wouldn't be possible without the system that one is critizizing.
- klez 7y agoI find it weird too, especially considering that Donbass and Luhansk declared themselves People's Soviets. I think it's just shoddy journalism and those people actually fought alongside Ukranian troops.
- tpm 7y agoDoesn't mean anything really, especially as far-right extremists are not the brightest bulbs. Slovak neonazis were fighting in Donbass on the side of Russians/separatistit, because that side invested heavily in propaganda (abroad, not only domestic) and presented itself as a front against anything modern and especially the EU (which is the incarnation of evil to them), so reactionary forces are naturally drawn to them.
- FDS 7y agoThey didn‘t fight on the russian side. For some reason english media mistranslated original press release. https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497390 https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497... It says "avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti". So they were fighting against separatists.
- AndyMcConachie 7y agoArs Technica needs to issue a correction to the story. Otherwise I'm going to lose considerable respect for them. There's a fine line between making a genuine mistake and lying to your readers.
- klez 7y agoI think if you point it out to them with a correct translation from the Italian police site they will correct it. Also, they're not the only one who made that mistake. The independent said the same thing. It would be interesting to know where the original mistranslation originated from.
- Krasnol 7y agoI guess it came from the origin of the main suspect Fabio Del Bergiolo. He was was a candidate for Forza Nuova in 2010. FN is a pro-Kremlin far-right party. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Force_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Force_(Italy)
- HelloNurse 7y agoIt might be a typical American level of ignorance of geography and foreign politics. A wrong assumption of Ukrainian separatists in a Russian land is an obvious mistake to make.
- aksss 7y ago> I'm going to lose considerable respect for them Hahaha.. as if the bank account was that full to begin with
- lultimouomo 7y agoItaly's right wing movements have had a fondness for Russia for quite a few years now; Ukraine fascists are just not as famous as Russian ones, nor as powerful, so I guess it was an easy pick. An anti-EU stance might also have been a factor.
- praptak 7y agohttps://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-co-opting-angry-young-men/568741/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/08/russia-is-... TLDR: Russia backs these groups to undermine Western societies. Nazis admire Putin because of shared disdain for democracy.
- ryacko 7y agoI wouldn’t want to associate with Nazis then, clearly they support supremacy, secrecy, and a criminal state. Democracy is associated with fairness, openness, and justice. I would like to think that the US educational system inoculates everyone from those dreadful -isms.
- praptak 7y agoPeople who feel shafted by society will reject its values. No amount of inoculation prevents that. The best way of prevention is to genuinely care for the rejected.
- ryacko 7y agoThen Nazism is truly tragic, for those that follow it are the most prone to rejecting others. It seems so trivial, and yet we fall short.
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- kozak 7y agoThere are no* neo-nazis from the Ukrainian side, it's a Russian propaganda myth. Since WW2, they've been putting a "neo-nazi" label on anyone who thinks that Ukraine shouldn't be a part of Russia. * I mean that ocurrence of neo-nazis is approximately the same as in any normal country. You can never say there are no neo-nazis in any particular group of people, of course.
- gbuk2013 7y agohttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30414955 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30414955
- kozak 7y agoYeah, good example of "post-truth" world. Russia is rich and large and influential enough to influence even BBC. In fact, the ideology that drives the Russian side of the conflict indeed has something to do with nazism, while Ukrainians are just protecting their own country. Ukrainians don't fight on non-Ukrainian soil, while Russians do fight on Ukrainian soil. Today, both president and prime minister of Ukraine are Jewish both by ethnic origin and by religion, by the way.
- stareatgoats 7y agoI sympathize with the tendency to have polarized views when deeply involved in a conflict, especially an armed one. But for the record, this BBC article does not have the common hallmarks of a viewpoint pushed and purchased by the Kremlin, or a post-truth world. On the contrary. For the large part it comes across as balanced and informed IMO, and your sweeping dismissal does not answer the factual issues it raises, particularly the role of the Azov Battalion and the Patriot of Ukraine organisation, "which considers Jews and other minorities "sub-human" and calls for a white, Christian crusade against them, it sports three Nazi symbols". In my opinion, this piece on atlanticcouncil.org sorts out the misconceptions: there is in Ukraine no more support for extreme-right or neo-nazi organizations than other European countries (which however is on an alarmingly upward trajectory). However, "More ominously, Ukraine’s far-right, para-military formations and their penchant for vigilantism remain a problem that must be more vigorously countered by the state and their sources of funding investigated thoroughly." [0] It is really necessary get a grasp of the whole picture. [0] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-anti-semitism-racism-and-the-far-right https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-a...
- baybal2 7y agoI find it surprising that somebody still finds it surprising. Neonazism was for all purposes Putin's de-facto state ideology for Russia since around 2005 or so. The only fig leaf they have is the official denial of connection in between the skinheads and other neonazi groups and the state. That is only skin deep of course https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2017/11/23/dbb8470a0ceb4e7ea6a7316e0cb701a2_18.jpg https://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2017/11/23/dbb8470a... Putin is of course afraid of image taint and loosing personal access to the Western politicians if he were to dress like a nazi himself. So he keeps himself nominally distanced
- mirimir 7y agoThe Soviet Union was always fundamentally fascist, and so is the current Russian government. Or at least, after the second 1917 revolution, when the gangsters took over. But now more openly kleptocratic.
- benj111 7y agoHow useful is this in actuality? Could I launch it from the ground, or does it need to be launched from the air? Could i just strap it to a Cessna, or does it need other systems (radar?) to work? Does it need the original war head, or can you attach any old explosive device. In short, if I as a potential terrorist wanted to shoot down a plane, would this be a reasonable starting point?
- nibblerbro 7y agoNice try nazi, I'm not going to help you
- klez 7y agoThey were trying to sell it, not use it directly. At which point it may end in the hands of someone who might know how to use it or how to retrofit it for other uses.
- mikeyouse 7y agoNot at all useful, needs to be fired from the air, from a specific outdated French jet weapon system that essentially nobody uses any more. Speculation was that maybe Libya would have a use for it. And yes, its target needs to be painted with a radar for the entire flight. 30kg of high explosive could be useful to a generic terrorist but it's unlikely that the missile itself would have been used. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28976/italian-cops-raid-neo-fascists-and-find-air-to-air-missile-that-france-had-sold-to-qatar https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28976/italian-cops-rai...
- anigbrowl 7y agoThey were only a few steps away from development of a milkshake capability.
- nativeimigrant 7y agoFake news. They fought for the Ukrainians
- toomanybeersies 7y agoHow dangerous is one of these things without the surrounding targeting system? And how useful would this be to a foreign government that somehow doesn't have access to other air-to-air missiles? It seems to me like a bit of a sensationalist headline, and the more dangerous weapons are actually the small arms.
- yborg 7y agoNot very, since it lacks a warhead. And it's a late-70s era missile, so not even valuable for reverse engineering.
- trasz 7y agoI’d love to watch a teardown on YouTube.
- rurounijones 7y agoA guy did a teardown of the seeker head from a russian Knock-off of the AIM-9. Rather interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxcS1AwquA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxcS1AwquA
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- kitteh 7y agoThe 530 is a SARH missile. It requires a radar system (found in the French Mirage aircraft for example) to lock and paint it's target the entire time for the missile to track and eventually detonate. It would be pretty difficult to do and the acqusition/targeting radar would need to be cooled and energized for the duration of the flight. Launching A2A missiles from the ground is pretty rare but it is possible as evidenced recently by Yemen ground launching a Russian R27T infrared missile successfully at a Saudi F15.
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
- keith_talent 7y agoThis is being reported elsewhere with other details. Reports that there were multiple raids across the region on a number of groups who were connected, although details are scarce. I’ve seen it reported that the weapons belong to a member of a Juventus Ultras group. Links: https://www.football-italia.net/140792/juve-ultras-neo-nazi-raid https://www.football-italia.net/140792/juve-ultras-neo-nazi-... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/01/nside-talys-ultras-the-dangerous-fans-who-control-the-game https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/01/nside-talys-ul...