11 ms·

The amount of crap in the app stores that encourage this sort of behaviour is truly, truly shocking. The gaming community often lambast companies like EA etc f

The amount of crap in the app stores that encourage this sort of behaviour is truly, truly shocking. The gaming community often lambast companies like EA etc for loot boxes ("surprise mechanics"), which is definitely a problem that needs to go away, but from this article I suspect there's a lot of examples of absolute bottom of the barrel shovelware on the app stores that's raking it in from accidental purchases from children or vulnerable adults. I remember Apple saying they were putting together some sort of curated program for high quality games, maybe with a subscription model. Which is cool and everything but creating a two-tier system doesn't solve the underlying problem. Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system where the cardholder need to explicitly approve it through their phone. Or maybe a daily spending cap or something like that

madeofpalk 7y ago
> Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system It does - at least on Apple devices, IAP need to be authenticated with a physical interaction, and Touch/Face ID.
- djhworld 7y ago
  I was thinking more as in, sending the approval to a separate device, but obviously that wouldn't work if you just have one device that you let your kids play on.
  - ska 7y ago
    I think Apple already (can) do that - but as you note it doesn't help with a shared device.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  Isn't that still single factor? It's touch OR password/info, not AND.
- BonesJustice 7y ago
  The benefits are largely obscured by in-game currencies, which exist primarily to obfuscate the true cost of inane in-app purchases; maximize the odds of having a useless residual balance (thus encouraging more spending); and reduce barriers to spending. Games don’t have to prompt for confirmation to spend proprietary fake money. This removes an opportunity to reconsider a purchase, and dramatically increases the chance of accidental spending. And without a dollar value that players can easily reason about, it’s easy to not realize how much you’re spending. “35 crystal whatzits? Um, okay, that doesn’t sound like much.” Never mind the fact that you actually have to buy at least 50 whatzits to have 35, because the next lowest option is to buy 25. I don’t have any data on this, but I’d be willing to bet that revenues from in-app purchases went through the roof when someone had the bright idea to switch to an in-game currency (and, eventually, multiple currencies).
codewithcheese 7y ago
2FA is one of those basic things that should be standard for all credit card charges. I want to have the change to approve or deny every charge. Is that so much to ask?
- deogeo 7y ago
  That would result in less consumer spending, so yes.
- bboreham 7y ago
  2FA will be required across the EU in September (outside of some exemptions, eg a charge under €30) https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/news-and-insights/what-is-psd2 https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/news-and-insights/wha...
  - plankers 7y ago
    I was about to say this won't help at all with the microtransaction problem detailed in the article, but then I read your link and found this more complete (although confusing) description of the exemption you name: >single transactions must be less than €30, up to a maximum of €100 or five transactions It's the "or" there that I don't quite understand. Does this mean that any 5 transactions can be made without 2FA as long as their cumulative total is less than €100? If so, does the system ask for 2FA after surpassing the €100 limit? Or does this mean that 5 transactions can be made as long as each is under €30? While probably helpful to families and individuals who face these sorts of issues, the explanation of the law could certainly be clearer here...
    - tpetry 7y ago
      Its the same rules as contactless credit card payments by most banks here: after every 5 transactions you need to verify, everyone not larger than 30€ and the sum of these 5 transactions may not exceed 100€. If your next spending will break these rules you need to verify it
    - jotm 7y ago
schnevets 7y ago
I was just having an internal debate about the merits of a spending cap. I'm not usually one for such blunt regulation, but there really is no way to justify spending +$100 on mobile games daily unless an individual is addicted, deceived, or in some other way psychologically manipulated. Although society would probably benefit from similar caps in casinos, and I doubt that regulation will ever arrive be legislated.
- djhworld 7y ago
  I remember hearing about one guy asking his bank to essentially block any gambling transaction as he was an addict https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45652429 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45652429 Obviously there are ways to cirumvent that but it seemed to help him. I suspect it's harder to block these in app purchases at the bank level though, unless everything goes through Apple/Google pay and you block at that level
  - weaksauce 7y ago
    you can block in-app purchases at the ios level using restrictions. i don't recall if the setting is a different password than the one to login to the ipad though. iirc it seems that you set it up when you enable restrictions.
  - pintxo 7y ago
    In Germany you can set yourself on the black list of your local casino or whatever. It‘s a legally required feature. https://www.verspiel-nicht-dein-leben.de/spielsucht/spielersperre.html https://www.verspiel-nicht-dein-leben.de/spielsucht/spielers...
    - AdamGibbins 7y ago
      The UK has similar now integrated into various modern fintech banks: https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-the-public/Safer-gambling/Self-exclusion.aspx https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-the-public/Safer-g...
    - 7y ago
thom 7y ago
I have to explicitly approve every install and purchase on my kids' iPod Touches. I don't know if they would need a fingerprint on my phone to be able to spend money there, but I assume all the tools are in place to control this sort of behaviour. Apple really need to make it clearer and easier for people.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  They could make that the default behavior. But I suspect someone whose mandate is moneymaking would veto it.
  - thom 7y ago
    Has anyone done a breakdown of Apple's profit from hardware vs (in-)app purchases? Feels like this is a situation where they're not selling the devices as loss leaders, and could easily improve people's experiences and perceptions by cracking down a bit, without it really costing them much. Feels along the same lines as the privacy push - they _could_ make lots of money selling your data, but they're selling the peace of mind as a feature.
    - Retric 7y ago
      That is somewhat misleading as some apps are essentially shareware, aka free with a single in app purchase to the the full version. I think Apple would be well served by limiting in app purchases to either 200$ over the lifetime of app or 20$ per month. That would get rid of most bad press without costing them much. They could even then allow specific exceptions on a case by case basis.
      - apsdsm 7y ago
        This would make the business model for gatcha games (which rely on a small fraction of their player base sendings tens of thousands of dollars each) essentially impossible. So a net gain for everyone, then.
- snailmailman 7y ago
cced 7y ago
Can the use of the term “surprise mechanics” not in itself lead to some definition of gambling? eg.: Gamblers continuously perform some behaviour in order to activate some sort of “surprise circuit” within the mind? Surely their definition is not too far from that of gambling or the mechanics of the circuits activated by gambling/surprises, within the mind.
- lozenge 7y ago
  Gambling requires you to win something of value. Pinball machines only give you free games and are not giving something of value. However some countries like the Netherlands have a definition that includes many of these video games.
robin_reala 7y ago
Apple’s curation programme is Apple Arcade: https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ . The takeaway headline: “No ads. No in‑app purchases.”

madeofpalk 7y ago

> Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system It does - at least on Apple devices, IAP need to be authenticated with a physical interaction, and Touch/Face ID.

djhworld 7y ago
I was thinking more as in, sending the approval to a separate device, but obviously that wouldn't work if you just have one device that you let your kids play on.
- ska 7y ago
  I think Apple already (can) do that - but as you note it doesn't help with a shared device.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
Isn't that still single factor? It's touch OR password/info, not AND.
BonesJustice 7y ago
The benefits are largely obscured by in-game currencies, which exist primarily to obfuscate the true cost of inane in-app purchases; maximize the odds of having a useless residual balance (thus encouraging more spending); and reduce barriers to spending. Games don’t have to prompt for confirmation to spend proprietary fake money. This removes an opportunity to reconsider a purchase, and dramatically increases the chance of accidental spending. And without a dollar value that players can easily reason about, it’s easy to not realize how much you’re spending. “35 crystal whatzits? Um, okay, that doesn’t sound like much.” Never mind the fact that you actually have to buy at least 50 whatzits to have 35, because the next lowest option is to buy 25. I don’t have any data on this, but I’d be willing to bet that revenues from in-app purchases went through the roof when someone had the bright idea to switch to an in-game currency (and, eventually, multiple currencies).

codewithcheese 7y ago

2FA is one of those basic things that should be standard for all credit card charges. I want to have the change to approve or deny every charge. Is that so much to ask?

deogeo 7y ago
That would result in less consumer spending, so yes.
bboreham 7y ago
2FA will be required across the EU in September (outside of some exemptions, eg a charge under €30) https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/news-and-insights/what-is-psd2 https://www.barclaycard.co.uk/business/news-and-insights/wha...
- plankers 7y ago
  I was about to say this won't help at all with the microtransaction problem detailed in the article, but then I read your link and found this more complete (although confusing) description of the exemption you name: >single transactions must be less than €30, up to a maximum of €100 or five transactions It's the "or" there that I don't quite understand. Does this mean that any 5 transactions can be made without 2FA as long as their cumulative total is less than €100? If so, does the system ask for 2FA after surpassing the €100 limit? Or does this mean that 5 transactions can be made as long as each is under €30? While probably helpful to families and individuals who face these sorts of issues, the explanation of the law could certainly be clearer here...
  - tpetry 7y ago
    Its the same rules as contactless credit card payments by most banks here: after every 5 transactions you need to verify, everyone not larger than 30€ and the sum of these 5 transactions may not exceed 100€. If your next spending will break these rules you need to verify it
  - jotm 7y ago

schnevets 7y ago

I was just having an internal debate about the merits of a spending cap. I'm not usually one for such blunt regulation, but there really is no way to justify spending +$100 on mobile games daily unless an individual is addicted, deceived, or in some other way psychologically manipulated. Although society would probably benefit from similar caps in casinos, and I doubt that regulation will ever arrive be legislated.

djhworld 7y ago
I remember hearing about one guy asking his bank to essentially block any gambling transaction as he was an addict https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45652429 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45652429 Obviously there are ways to cirumvent that but it seemed to help him. I suspect it's harder to block these in app purchases at the bank level though, unless everything goes through Apple/Google pay and you block at that level
- weaksauce 7y ago
  you can block in-app purchases at the ios level using restrictions. i don't recall if the setting is a different password than the one to login to the ipad though. iirc it seems that you set it up when you enable restrictions.
- pintxo 7y ago
  In Germany you can set yourself on the black list of your local casino or whatever. It‘s a legally required feature. https://www.verspiel-nicht-dein-leben.de/spielsucht/spielersperre.html https://www.verspiel-nicht-dein-leben.de/spielsucht/spielers...
  - AdamGibbins 7y ago
    The UK has similar now integrated into various modern fintech banks: https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-the-public/Safer-gambling/Self-exclusion.aspx https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/for-the-public/Safer-g...
  - 7y ago

thom 7y ago

I have to explicitly approve every install and purchase on my kids' iPod Touches. I don't know if they would need a fingerprint on my phone to be able to spend money there, but I assume all the tools are in place to control this sort of behaviour. Apple really need to make it clearer and easier for people.

Waterluvian 7y ago
They could make that the default behavior. But I suspect someone whose mandate is moneymaking would veto it.
- thom 7y ago
  Has anyone done a breakdown of Apple's profit from hardware vs (in-)app purchases? Feels like this is a situation where they're not selling the devices as loss leaders, and could easily improve people's experiences and perceptions by cracking down a bit, without it really costing them much. Feels along the same lines as the privacy push - they _could_ make lots of money selling your data, but they're selling the peace of mind as a feature.
  - Retric 7y ago
    That is somewhat misleading as some apps are essentially shareware, aka free with a single in app purchase to the the full version. I think Apple would be well served by limiting in app purchases to either 200$ over the lifetime of app or 20$ per month. That would get rid of most bad press without costing them much. They could even then allow specific exceptions on a case by case basis.
    - apsdsm 7y ago
      This would make the business model for gatcha games (which rely on a small fraction of their player base sendings tens of thousands of dollars each) essentially impossible. So a net gain for everyone, then.
snailmailman 7y ago

cced 7y ago

Can the use of the term “surprise mechanics” not in itself lead to some definition of gambling? eg.: Gamblers continuously perform some behaviour in order to activate some sort of “surprise circuit” within the mind? Surely their definition is not too far from that of gambling or the mechanics of the circuits activated by gambling/surprises, within the mind.

lozenge 7y ago
Gambling requires you to win something of value. Pinball machines only give you free games and are not giving something of value. However some countries like the Netherlands have a definition that includes many of these video games.

robin_reala 7y ago

Apple’s curation programme is Apple Arcade: https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ . The takeaway headline: “No ads. No in‑app purchases.”