7 ms·

Caring for your introvert

166 points by tamersalama 16y ago

hardik988 16y ago
I can relate to this on a deep level, because apart from being an introvert, I also happen to have a stutter (though they're mutually exclusive. I would've been an introvert even if I didn't have a stutter). So, I try to avoid talking to anyone new, because that triggers the stuttering. Being a startup guy makes this much harder as I have to meet new people now and then. I love meeting new people, but the talking becomes unbearable, and I usually find a way out of the conversation to avoid awkwardness. A lot of my feelings can be summed up by the movie, Rocket Science.
- blr_hack 16y ago
  Some of my good friends, have suffered, from the problem of stutter. To the best I know (we never discussed this), they overcame it, by simply stop getting embarrassed about it. Its hard to acquire that feeling in one go. It needs to be cultivated. And BTW, Do you know, Hrithik Roshan (Indian Movie Star) has been struggling through an acute stuttering problem, since he was a child. In an interview of his I saw, he was saying he practices on his vocals for about an hour or two daily. Also he occasionally did stuff like: Once he had to do a stage show in Dubai, he shut himself in a cabinet, and screamed at top of his voice. The reason he did it was, so as to not alarm the other people in the hotel.
- maw 16y ago
  I hate (love?) to be the pedant here, but your stutter and your introversion aren't mutually exclusive. They're orthogonal. As to the stuttering, I think I understand. I don't stutter, but I do have a horrible time hearing when there's much ambient noise. It makes many otherwise neutral to vaguely unpleasant events unbearable.
BRadmin 16y ago
Great article, but repost from over a year and a half ago (and article is from 2003): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311
- levesque 16y ago
  I will play the role of the guy who has never got the chance to read the article, although it is very old, and I will thank the poster!
  - necubi 16y ago
    Me too. This so perfectly describes how I feel in social situations, and it's nice to hear somebody say "It's Ok! It's society that's screwed up, not you."
- gliese1337 16y ago
  And I've had it hanging on my wall ever since. Helps remind roommates and enlighten guests. Definitely warrants revisiting from time to time.
- Sizlak 16y ago
  Such a great article though that all extroverts should be forced to reread it yearly until it sinks in.
  - d2viant 16y ago
    I'm an introvert but I also understand it goes both ways. Some of my extroverted friends may need me to swing the pendulum more their way as well. It may be uncomfortable and draining for me to be that outgoing or engaged, but I think back to the situations in which I made a conscious effort to do so -- I seem to have grown a little bit each time I did.
- tamersalama 16y ago
  Sorry - unintentional repost.
- pastiche 16y ago
  In case anyone wants to go more in-depth into the inner workings of an introvert, I highly recommend the book "Introvert Power" by Laurie Helgoe. The article sums up most of the basic points pretty nicely though.
mtigas 16y ago
The follow-up interviews and bits are worth reading, too, if you've never seen them: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/introverts-of-the-world-unite/4646/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/introver... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/jonathan-rauch-comments-on-some-of-the-feedback-hes-received-for-caring-for-your-introvert/4647/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/jonathan... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/04/the-introversy-continues/4845/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/04/the-intr...
- noidi 16y ago
  Thanks for the links! It's nice to see shyness and intro/extroversion addressed as separate things. I've always had a really hard time identifying with descriptions of both introverts and extroverts. I'd really like to read about shy extroverts, if that's not an oxymoron, since I suspect that that description might fit me.
codeslush 16y ago
I appreciate the post as I haven't read it before. I am confident I'm an introvert I definitely NEED my quiet time - plenty of it. I absolutely suck at small talk. In fact, it's one of the things that causes me the most anxiety about business meetings. I'm cool with the meeting/presentations/etc..., but if we have to go to lunch or dinner, I'm petrified! Below are a couple of things that help me, and I'm curious if other introverts have adopted any tools to help them: 1. Alcohol! Of course, this isn't always appropriate, but it does seem to work. Hah. 2. Adopt a passion in a subject that is applicable to a large audience that falls outside your primary expertise. For example - Fitness. As the article states, introverts are perfectly capable of engaging in conversations that interest them without the exhaustion that comes with normal small talk. Most people are interested in fitness. Therefore, if the introvert is highly interested in fitness, it stands to reason that he can steer a conversation in that direction and engage with a wide array of personalities. Food/Nutrition, Travel, history are other examples that might work. How about you?
- andymism 16y ago
  As an introvert myself, I follow a short list of rules/steps before big events/social gatherings that starts a few days before the event itself. Although I'm usually physically exhausted the day after the event, I'm often complimented and mentioned as 'quite the social butterfly' by friends and acquantances during such events. These things don't take much time, but do take effort. The payoff is worth it though (firends, fun, and fame ;-) ). YMMV. 1. Ditch the alcohol. Or, at least, know your limit (that gives you a buzz) and have 50% less. You want to be able to remember faces and names of the people you meet and some details about your conversation. So make sure your mental faculties are reasonably sharp. 2. Spend most of your time listening. Pretend that you're interviewing the person and ask them open ended questions about their job and hobbies. You will almost certainly find out something interesting about them that you can discuss further. Who knows, maybe they're a programmer just like you! 3. Get up to speed on current events. I personally try not to read much news, but for about 3 days heading up to an event, I'll skim headlines and first paragraphs news articles on a broad range of topics (takes less than an hour each day). The goal here is to create little hooks that you can hang conversations on, it is not to become an expert on a random topic. You'll most certainly run into someone who'll know more than you and will gladly tell you all about it. 4. Keep it light. You and the other guests are there to have fun. Downers are for drug addicts. Politics and religion is for reddit. 5. Work the room by having short conversations with lots of people and asking for introductions. Introductions are as simple as asking, "So who else do you know here tonight?". 6. Prepare yourself mentally for being at the event. Clear out to do's and other distractions. I kind of psych myself up for chatting with lots of people in the same way others might psych themselves up for sports contests (metaphorically, of course). All of the above can be summed up as: 1. It's not about you. It's about everyone else who you'll meet, the friends you'll make, and making sure your significant other has a good time (especially if he/she is an extrovert). 2. Prepare. "A hard drill makes an easy battle". I've learned to turn down small talk heavy events that I can't adequately prepare for. I've also learned that you can have a 15 minute conversation with someone by just asking what they do for a living and how they got to doing it. I've learned that stock phrases (aka, pick up lines) really work. My favorites are: "Hi, I'm Andrew." "What do you do (for a living)?" And, if I find out the person has an MBA: "So what the hell is future-discounted value?"
blr_hack 16y ago
Some thoughts: 1) Am I the only one thinking, that some of the terms used to describe introverts: "guarded," "loner," "reserved," "taciturn," "self-contained," "private", have since long been stopped to be considered as negatives? 2) Think, Introverts easily command more respect, on an average, than extroverts (no data to back this up. Just my perception). Even extroverts, based on my anecdotal experiences, regard introverts with a lot of respect, as high achievers often tend to be introverted. 3) I like the definition though: "introverts are people who find other people tiring" 4) Think, >=70% ppl on HN are introverts. [ A poll could confirm this ... or break this :) ]
- _delirium 16y ago
  I think #1 and #2 are true, but mainly for introverts who are also seen as being somehow "serious" and accomplished, which is what earns the respect, and then the introversion adds an air of mysteriousness to it. There's a pretty old and fairly positive stereotype of the reserved intellectual, and similarly for the quiet, private artist or novelist (the counterpart of the cafe-frequenting extraverted artist). But I think among people who don't have a particularly serious/accomplished air going for them, extraverts get seen more positively by default. Even if both are seen as sort of time-wasting, somehow "wastes his time drinking and telling stories in bars" gets ranked higher than "wastes his time at home playing videogames".
natmaster 16y ago
So where do I learn how to deal with extroverts....
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disruptivetech 16y ago
I'm a big fan of Myers Briggs - the 4 letter assignation that is given to people for rating their personality. Most people lie on a spectrum between E and I (Extrovert and Introvert). We all have quiet time and noisy times and whilst you could consider yourself an Introvert since this is what you prefer, it could be very context sensitive. I expect if you profiled many tech entrepreneurs they would tend to be some sort of hybrid between E and I.
- Luyt 16y ago
  You might be interested in http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4221 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4221 Today we're going to delve into the murky depths of Jungian psychology, and examine one of its most popular surviving manifestations. The Myers-Briggs test is used all over the world, and is the single most popular psychometric system, with the full formal version of the test given more than 2,000,000 times a year. But is it a valid psychological tool, is it just another pop gimmick like astrology, or is the truth somewhere in between? ...
  - disruptivetech 16y ago
    I think it useful for helping gauge what makes people tick, remember that people lie on a spectrum. Everyone [I know] who has been through has commented that it has provided some insight into how they work. It doesn't pigeon-hole people: after all its not a psychiatric label and simply attempts to crystallize a few key traits into a manageable form. Life is spectrum and MB gets some of these key axes right. Wasn't it Jung that defined the extrovert and the introvert?
wccrawford 16y ago
"Are introverts arrogant? Hardly. I suppose this common misconception has to do with our being more intelligent, more reflective, more independent, more level-headed, more refined, and more sensitive than extroverts." ... That's the very definition of arrogant. I'm an introvert and happy with it. The people who are still my friends know this and don't try to change me. I don't try to frame my introversion in terms of being better than others, though. I simply am who I am.
- rue 16y ago
  "Do introverts have trouble picking up on irony?"
  - JVerstry 16y ago
    Absolutely not... I am an introvert.
    - thesz 16y ago
      Why are those introverts here so going extra about it?
  - jseliger 16y ago
    I teach English comp to freshmen at the University of Arizona and assign this piece every semester. About a quarter to a third of them don't realize that Rauch is joking. Usually I go through the Google section ("I performed exhaustive research on this question, in the form of a quick Google search. The answer: About 25 percent. Or: Just under half. Or—my favorite—"a minority in the regular population but a majority in the gifted population."") to make this obvious. I've also noticed a weird gender breakdown: a fair number of guys say things like, "this describes me perfectly!" and a fair number of girls say things like, "this describes my boyfriend perfectly!" It's rare to get responses the other way around. Anything that increases understanding is, in my view, a net good thing. A poorly written book called "The Introvert Advantage" elaborates on the idea that introverts aren't necessarily shy -- they just need time alone to recharge, while extroverts actually find themselves energized by others and bored alone. Despite the low quality of the writing, I sometimes recommend it to people who have that "ah ha!" moment.
hessenwolf 16y ago
Please don't take this dodgy, pop-psychology to heart and act on it. Dividing people into black-and-white introverts versus extroverts is too simple.
thingie 16y ago
Now, the question is what to do if I just don't have any time that I can spend alone. There should be some substitute.
S_A_P 16y ago
I can relate to much of what he said. I find that most people are socially tiring, though I have a small network of friends I dont mind hanging out with long term. The metaphor of gasping for air in a fog of contentless conversation is a great way to put it. I was at dinner last night and remember counting the empty sentences of one of the people at my table. I am also usually pretty quiet in meetings where people are hashing ideas out. I usually like to think things through before speaking from a place of authority on them, which for me means doing a proof of concept and assessing the problems at that point. I personally hate being wrong on a "guess".
kang 16y ago
It is amazing how he performed "exhaustive, quick google search" to find the number of introverts??!!
m_myers 16y ago
Related: The Nerd Handbook by Rands In Repose. http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_ha... I fit only about half of the things he describes, but that half is so spot-on it sounds like he's been stalking me.
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nlawalker 16y ago
The problem with this article, as with Rands' "Nerd Handbook", is that it's impossible to get the extroverts in your life to read it. They're too busy socializing and Facebooking :)
angrycoder 16y ago
I can't be the only one sitting here saying, "Holy shit, so that's my problem".
blahblahblah 16y ago
I would challenge the assertion that introversion/extraversion are some sort of immutable orientation. These traits can and do change over time. In high school, I tested as an INTJ on the Myers-Briggs. As an undergrad, I tested as ENFP. As an adult, I'm back to being an introvert. Ask me again in five, ten, twenty years from now and you'll likely get a variety of different answers.

166 points by tamersalama 16y ago

I can relate to this on a deep level, because apart from being an introvert, I also happen to have a stutter (though they're mutually exclusive. I would've been an introvert even if I didn't have a stutter). So, I try to avoid talking to anyone new, because that triggers the stuttering. Being a startup guy makes this much harder as I have to meet new people now and then. I love meeting new people, but the talking becomes unbearable, and I usually find a way out of the conversation to avoid awkwardness. A lot of my feelings can be summed up by the movie, Rocket Science.

blr_hack 16y ago
Some of my good friends, have suffered, from the problem of stutter. To the best I know (we never discussed this), they overcame it, by simply stop getting embarrassed about it. Its hard to acquire that feeling in one go. It needs to be cultivated. And BTW, Do you know, Hrithik Roshan (Indian Movie Star) has been struggling through an acute stuttering problem, since he was a child. In an interview of his I saw, he was saying he practices on his vocals for about an hour or two daily. Also he occasionally did stuff like: Once he had to do a stage show in Dubai, he shut himself in a cabinet, and screamed at top of his voice. The reason he did it was, so as to not alarm the other people in the hotel.
maw 16y ago
I hate (love?) to be the pedant here, but your stutter and your introversion aren't mutually exclusive. They're orthogonal. As to the stuttering, I think I understand. I don't stutter, but I do have a horrible time hearing when there's much ambient noise. It makes many otherwise neutral to vaguely unpleasant events unbearable.

BRadmin 16y ago

Great article, but repost from over a year and a half ago (and article is from 2003): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=561311

levesque 16y ago
I will play the role of the guy who has never got the chance to read the article, although it is very old, and I will thank the poster!
- necubi 16y ago
  Me too. This so perfectly describes how I feel in social situations, and it's nice to hear somebody say "It's Ok! It's society that's screwed up, not you."
gliese1337 16y ago
And I've had it hanging on my wall ever since. Helps remind roommates and enlighten guests. Definitely warrants revisiting from time to time.
Sizlak 16y ago
Such a great article though that all extroverts should be forced to reread it yearly until it sinks in.
- d2viant 16y ago
  I'm an introvert but I also understand it goes both ways. Some of my extroverted friends may need me to swing the pendulum more their way as well. It may be uncomfortable and draining for me to be that outgoing or engaged, but I think back to the situations in which I made a conscious effort to do so -- I seem to have grown a little bit each time I did.
tamersalama 16y ago
Sorry - unintentional repost.
pastiche 16y ago
In case anyone wants to go more in-depth into the inner workings of an introvert, I highly recommend the book "Introvert Power" by Laurie Helgoe. The article sums up most of the basic points pretty nicely though.

mtigas 16y ago

The follow-up interviews and bits are worth reading, too, if you've never seen them: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/introverts-of-the-world-unite/4646/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/introver... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/jonathan-rauch-comments-on-some-of-the-feedback-hes-received-for-caring-for-your-introvert/4647/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/02/jonathan... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/04/the-introversy-continues/4845/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/04/the-intr...

noidi 16y ago
Thanks for the links! It's nice to see shyness and intro/extroversion addressed as separate things. I've always had a really hard time identifying with descriptions of both introverts and extroverts. I'd really like to read about shy extroverts, if that's not an oxymoron, since I suspect that that description might fit me.

codeslush 16y ago

I appreciate the post as I haven't read it before. I am confident I'm an introvert I definitely NEED my quiet time - plenty of it. I absolutely suck at small talk. In fact, it's one of the things that causes me the most anxiety about business meetings. I'm cool with the meeting/presentations/etc..., but if we have to go to lunch or dinner, I'm petrified! Below are a couple of things that help me, and I'm curious if other introverts have adopted any tools to help them: 1. Alcohol! Of course, this isn't always appropriate, but it does seem to work. Hah. 2. Adopt a passion in a subject that is applicable to a large audience that falls outside your primary expertise. For example - Fitness. As the article states, introverts are perfectly capable of engaging in conversations that interest them without the exhaustion that comes with normal small talk. Most people are interested in fitness. Therefore, if the introvert is highly interested in fitness, it stands to reason that he can steer a conversation in that direction and engage with a wide array of personalities. Food/Nutrition, Travel, history are other examples that might work. How about you?

andymism 16y ago
As an introvert myself, I follow a short list of rules/steps before big events/social gatherings that starts a few days before the event itself. Although I'm usually physically exhausted the day after the event, I'm often complimented and mentioned as 'quite the social butterfly' by friends and acquantances during such events. These things don't take much time, but do take effort. The payoff is worth it though (firends, fun, and fame ;-) ). YMMV. 1. Ditch the alcohol. Or, at least, know your limit (that gives you a buzz) and have 50% less. You want to be able to remember faces and names of the people you meet and some details about your conversation. So make sure your mental faculties are reasonably sharp. 2. Spend most of your time listening. Pretend that you're interviewing the person and ask them open ended questions about their job and hobbies. You will almost certainly find out something interesting about them that you can discuss further. Who knows, maybe they're a programmer just like you! 3. Get up to speed on current events. I personally try not to read much news, but for about 3 days heading up to an event, I'll skim headlines and first paragraphs news articles on a broad range of topics (takes less than an hour each day). The goal here is to create little hooks that you can hang conversations on, it is not to become an expert on a random topic. You'll most certainly run into someone who'll know more than you and will gladly tell you all about it. 4. Keep it light. You and the other guests are there to have fun. Downers are for drug addicts. Politics and religion is for reddit. 5. Work the room by having short conversations with lots of people and asking for introductions. Introductions are as simple as asking, "So who else do you know here tonight?". 6. Prepare yourself mentally for being at the event. Clear out to do's and other distractions. I kind of psych myself up for chatting with lots of people in the same way others might psych themselves up for sports contests (metaphorically, of course). All of the above can be summed up as: 1. It's not about you. It's about everyone else who you'll meet, the friends you'll make, and making sure your significant other has a good time (especially if he/she is an extrovert). 2. Prepare. "A hard drill makes an easy battle". I've learned to turn down small talk heavy events that I can't adequately prepare for. I've also learned that you can have a 15 minute conversation with someone by just asking what they do for a living and how they got to doing it. I've learned that stock phrases (aka, pick up lines) really work. My favorites are: "Hi, I'm Andrew." "What do you do (for a living)?" And, if I find out the person has an MBA: "So what the hell is future-discounted value?"

blr_hack 16y ago

Some thoughts: 1) Am I the only one thinking, that some of the terms used to describe introverts: "guarded," "loner," "reserved," "taciturn," "self-contained," "private", have since long been stopped to be considered as negatives? 2) Think, Introverts easily command more respect, on an average, than extroverts (no data to back this up. Just my perception). Even extroverts, based on my anecdotal experiences, regard introverts with a lot of respect, as high achievers often tend to be introverted. 3) I like the definition though: "introverts are people who find other people tiring" 4) Think, >=70% ppl on HN are introverts. [ A poll could confirm this ... or break this :) ]

_delirium 16y ago
I think #1 and #2 are true, but mainly for introverts who are also seen as being somehow "serious" and accomplished, which is what earns the respect, and then the introversion adds an air of mysteriousness to it. There's a pretty old and fairly positive stereotype of the reserved intellectual, and similarly for the quiet, private artist or novelist (the counterpart of the cafe-frequenting extraverted artist). But I think among people who don't have a particularly serious/accomplished air going for them, extraverts get seen more positively by default. Even if both are seen as sort of time-wasting, somehow "wastes his time drinking and telling stories in bars" gets ranked higher than "wastes his time at home playing videogames".

natmaster 16y ago

So where do I learn how to deal with extroverts....

dfhjtyjty 16y ago

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disruptivetech 16y ago

I'm a big fan of Myers Briggs - the 4 letter assignation that is given to people for rating their personality. Most people lie on a spectrum between E and I (Extrovert and Introvert). We all have quiet time and noisy times and whilst you could consider yourself an Introvert since this is what you prefer, it could be very context sensitive. I expect if you profiled many tech entrepreneurs they would tend to be some sort of hybrid between E and I.

Luyt 16y ago
You might be interested in http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4221 http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4221 Today we're going to delve into the murky depths of Jungian psychology, and examine one of its most popular surviving manifestations. The Myers-Briggs test is used all over the world, and is the single most popular psychometric system, with the full formal version of the test given more than 2,000,000 times a year. But is it a valid psychological tool, is it just another pop gimmick like astrology, or is the truth somewhere in between? ...
- disruptivetech 16y ago
  I think it useful for helping gauge what makes people tick, remember that people lie on a spectrum. Everyone [I know] who has been through has commented that it has provided some insight into how they work. It doesn't pigeon-hole people: after all its not a psychiatric label and simply attempts to crystallize a few key traits into a manageable form. Life is spectrum and MB gets some of these key axes right. Wasn't it Jung that defined the extrovert and the introvert?

wccrawford 16y ago

"Are introverts arrogant? Hardly. I suppose this common misconception has to do with our being more intelligent, more reflective, more independent, more level-headed, more refined, and more sensitive than extroverts." ... That's the very definition of arrogant. I'm an introvert and happy with it. The people who are still my friends know this and don't try to change me. I don't try to frame my introversion in terms of being better than others, though. I simply am who I am.

rue 16y ago
"Do introverts have trouble picking up on irony?"
- JVerstry 16y ago
  Absolutely not... I am an introvert.
  - thesz 16y ago
    Why are those introverts here so going extra about it?
- jseliger 16y ago
  I teach English comp to freshmen at the University of Arizona and assign this piece every semester. About a quarter to a third of them don't realize that Rauch is joking. Usually I go through the Google section ("I performed exhaustive research on this question, in the form of a quick Google search. The answer: About 25 percent. Or: Just under half. Or—my favorite—"a minority in the regular population but a majority in the gifted population."") to make this obvious. I've also noticed a weird gender breakdown: a fair number of guys say things like, "this describes me perfectly!" and a fair number of girls say things like, "this describes my boyfriend perfectly!" It's rare to get responses the other way around. Anything that increases understanding is, in my view, a net good thing. A poorly written book called "The Introvert Advantage" elaborates on the idea that introverts aren't necessarily shy -- they just need time alone to recharge, while extroverts actually find themselves energized by others and bored alone. Despite the low quality of the writing, I sometimes recommend it to people who have that "ah ha!" moment.

hessenwolf 16y ago

Please don't take this dodgy, pop-psychology to heart and act on it. Dividing people into black-and-white introverts versus extroverts is too simple.

thingie 16y ago

Now, the question is what to do if I just don't have any time that I can spend alone. There should be some substitute.

S_A_P 16y ago

I can relate to much of what he said. I find that most people are socially tiring, though I have a small network of friends I dont mind hanging out with long term. The metaphor of gasping for air in a fog of contentless conversation is a great way to put it. I was at dinner last night and remember counting the empty sentences of one of the people at my table. I am also usually pretty quiet in meetings where people are hashing ideas out. I usually like to think things through before speaking from a place of authority on them, which for me means doing a proof of concept and assessing the problems at that point. I personally hate being wrong on a "guess".

kang 16y ago

It is amazing how he performed "exhaustive, quick google search" to find the number of introverts??!!

m_myers 16y ago

Related: The Nerd Handbook by Rands In Repose. http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_ha... I fit only about half of the things he describes, but that half is so spot-on it sounds like he's been stalking me.

dfhjrtjty 16y ago

nlawalker 16y ago

The problem with this article, as with Rands' "Nerd Handbook", is that it's impossible to get the extroverts in your life to read it. They're too busy socializing and Facebooking :)

angrycoder 16y ago

I can't be the only one sitting here saying, "Holy shit, so that's my problem".

blahblahblah 16y ago

I would challenge the assertion that introversion/extraversion are some sort of immutable orientation. These traits can and do change over time. In high school, I tested as an INTJ on the Myers-Briggs. As an undergrad, I tested as ENFP. As an adult, I'm back to being an introvert. Ask me again in five, ten, twenty years from now and you'll likely get a variety of different answers.