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Why does God need public records? In Alabama, that’s a real question
- b_tterc_p 7y agoWhy does the state need to obtain illegal execution drugs? Let’s say you’re the prison. You’re supposed to execute a prisoner tomorrow. You don’t have the drugs to do so. You could either fail to execute the prisoner, or take a fairly large risk and get illegal methods. Would the prison really lose face if it just said that it didn’t have the means to carry out the execution and thus did not?
- tokai 7y agoIts really expensive to have people sitting on death row?
- inflatableDodo 7y agoI'd be of the opinion that anyone who uses expense as a justification here is less morally balanced than most of the people on death row.
- bluGill 7y agoDeath row is very expensive. In part because the types of people up for death are high risk and so they have to pay for more security (guards, locks and even fire protection). In part because death row sees the most appeals so lawyers keeping them in cost more.
- number_six 7y agoI wonder if it is $775 per day?
- penagwin 7y agoWhere the heck did you pull that number from? Also why are you posing it as a question? The closest thing I see from google is "Trump's Child Detention Camps Cost $775 Per Person Every Day" which is unrelated to this discussion. Just for kicks and giggles: I wonder if it's $1337.995 per day?
- b_tterc_p 7y agoShit. Yeah that’s it and is retrospectively obvious. The prisons probably are responsible for operating under their assigned budgets, which means they need to literally kill off their liabilities. I wonder what correlations exist between prison profitability and inmate death rates.
- rayiner 7y agoAt least as of 2009, no state housed death row inmates in private prisons: https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/us/24prison.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/us/24prison.html. In Alabama, death row inmates are housed and executed in Holman, a public facility. Moreover, Alabama has just 1% of its prison population in private prisons. Many states that have the death penalty (Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Kansas, etc.) have no private prisons at all.
- b_tterc_p 7y agoThat’s good, but not contradictory of the point above. A public, not for profit prison presumably still has to operate on a budget. I did say “profitability”, but I suppose I really meant ability to operate. If prisons are held accountable to their finances, which I assume they are, they’re put into a position where expensive inmates who are budgeted to die must die, else they threaten the entire prison.
- mikeash 7y agoThen you have a condemned criminal sitting in a cell instead of being tortured in Hell like he’s supposed to be. Can’t have that.
- donarb 7y agoBecause the main ingredient of the injection cocktail, sodium thiopental is no longer manufactured in the US. The EU has also banned the drug. So states are now trying to "score" an alternative, pentobarbital which works similarly to sodium thiopental, but is slower acting, resulting in a few botched executions in Texas. https://www.inverse.com/article/4100-the-growing-black-market-behind-lethal-injection-drugs https://www.inverse.com/article/4100-the-growing-black-marke...
- FireBeyond 7y agoAnd to be quite clear (while I am personally against all applications of the death penalty), a botched execution is far more expensive, legally, and even medically (if there are increased healthcare costs for that timeframe), and also, a botched execution is generally considered "cruel and unusual punishment".
- SauciestGNU 7y ago>a botched execution is generally considered "cruel and unusual punishment". Not any longer. The Supreme Court ruled this term that prisoners sentenced to die have no right to a comfortable death.
- cannonedhamster 7y agoI wouldn't expect that ruling to survive this particular SCOTUS. They've broken years of precedence and created law from thin air that don't exist prior. It's not likely to survive when the pendulum swings on the court again, justice like judicial overreach on anti trust with the previous liberal majority was generally overturned.
- gregoryexe 7y ago"In 2015, the federal government seized drugs the state bought illegally off the black market. The shoddy, shady sources for the deadly cocktails have become a weak spot death penalty opponents have leveraged." wat?
- LocalH 7y agoApparently the government is having to get their execution drugs off the street
- Griffinsauce 7y agoMurdering people legally is hard. It's a good indication that it _should_ be impossible.
- dade_ 7y agoYes, yet another wrongly convicted of murder released. Police destroyed records: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-wrongful-conviction-records-unsealed-1.5207994 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/glen-assoun-wrong... Was in Canada, but if we still had execution...
- delinka 7y agoDid you reply in the right place? Not seeing how this is a reply to GP.
- javajosh 7y agoI say this as an opponent of the death penalty, there is nothing intrinsically difficult about killing someone, and I would guess that the ways a person can legally be killed have grown smaller and smaller over time by opponents of the practice. This is identical to the strategy used by anti-abortion advocates who chip away at access and timing and so on, and it's ethically questionable IMO.
- roywiggins 7y ago
- mherdeg 7y agoThis is a remarkable deposition transcript. Attorney Harmon comes off as quite a character.
- caymanjim 7y ago> When the DOC deposed her, Isner had to answer deeply personal questions about her faith, her social media habits, her adopted children, her political beliefs, her charitable donations, her work history and just about everything you might imagine apart from the only question that mattered — whether the DOC documents are public records. IANAL but I don't think she "had" to answer these questions. I'm not defending Alabama at all here, but depositions are not an open forum where anything goes. She is legally required to answer truthfully, but she doesn't have to answer at all if the question isn't germane. Maybe she opened the door to some of the questions by providing a religious basis for her information request, but most of these questions are completely irrelevant. She should have refused to play the game.
- inflatableDodo 7y agoYou do not have to answer, but if you do not, I presume the state, under the interpretation it has made of the law, can use your refusal as a basis for refusing your request for public records.
- caymanjim 7y agoDeclining to answer probably wouldn't have helped her cause, but I doubt anything she said would have stopped them from refusing. Hopefully now she at least has evidence of bias or misconduct that will serve as ammunition for her appeal against the ruling. I just wish she'd taken a stand against their absurd questions and stood up for the principle. Then again, I still let the TSA and customs perform intrusive searches and ask intrusive questions (that have no bearing on safety) when I travel, because I want to get on with my life. For example, when I return to the US (as a natural born US citizen), immigration will ask me what the purpose of my trip was, where I went, etc. They have no legitimate reason for this, I legally don't have to answer any of the questions, and they cannot refuse me re-entry (assuming they accept the validity of my passport), yet I play their game because at the end of a 10-hour flight and a 2-hour queue, I don't feel like sitting in a cell for 72 hours while they process me.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
- jameskilton 7y agoRegarding illegal execution drugs, John Oliver did a segment on lethal injections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTczPEG8iI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lTczPEG8iI tl;dw: No physician worth his/her salt will go anywhere near prescribing drugs for lethal injection (Hippocratic Oath and what not) so states and prisons use non-medical-trained personnel to choose, source, and administer the drugs.
- FireBeyond 7y agoIt's a bit more nuanced than that. For one, look at Oregon, and many other countries where euthanasia/assisted suicide is legal, and (I believe) has a legitimate and worthwhile place. As far as Oaths go, many physicians do not swear that any more, or do a modified / modern version (apropos of anything else, the Oath forbids "cutting the flesh", which would be problematic for surgeons).
- pmiller2 7y agoThat is true, but “first, do no harm” is still a part of many versions of the oath taken by physicians. In any case, it is still one of the, at times conflicting, principles at the core of medical ethics.
- jschwartzi 7y agoReason number 432,237 never to go to Alabama.
- lowercased 7y agojust had some family move down there (near the coast), partially to be near other family. "yeah, it's really nice down here - housing, weather, etc - but I hate being 45-50th in every national list".
- rayiner 7y agoIf it makes you feel better, Alabamans have higher incomes, adjusted for cost of living, than both New York and California: https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/11/15/median-household-purchasing-power-for-the-50-states-and-dc https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2018/11/1....
- inflatableDodo 7y agoMind you, so does Mozambique.
- RickJWagner 7y agoIn the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. Seriously. I live in a LOC (low cost of living) state and work as a remote programmer. This is a good scenario. Lots of people retire to states like Alabama. As you say, nice weather, cheap housing, etc. Every state has it's culture/education/entertainment centers, you can always live close to it.
- dang 7y agoPlease keep regional slurs off HN. Imagine being an HN reader in Alabama and running into this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bluGill 7y agoI'm not convinced she should get these records. While it is all public, it is also sensitive so you should have to justify your access. That is the prisoners in question have some privacy that should be respected.
- delinka 7y agoShe's not asking for the dietary inputs of prisoners on death row. She's asking for the process the state uses for executions. How does that have any bearing on individual prisoners' privacy? What she's asking for is public, and perhaps asking "why" might be allowed. But preventing access in any way to public information unacceptable.
- mikeash 7y agoThe state is using illegal drugs, administered without the care or advice of a doctor, to kill its citizens and you think it should remain secret for the sake of the privacy of the condemned? I can’t even.
- bluGill 7y agoThe article is confusing, from what I can gather she is interested in praying for those about to be executed and wants their name. There is lots of other text about drugs and such in their, but it doesn't seem to be the subject of her request. Instead I read it as a side discussion. Worth investigating - and thus worth the records, but the forms would be filled out differently if so.
- mikeash 7y agoWhere do you get that? The request is clearly described as being for the method of execution. Requesting their names wouldn’t make any sense anyway. That’s already publicly available.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago>When Isner asked for Alabama’s death row execution protocols, she had to give a reason on the Department of Corrections’ public information request form. >Isner has strong opinions about the death penalty (like a lot of people do). She’s an ordained minister, although she doesn’t lead a church (her husband does, though). Later she would run for Congress against Rep. Martha Roby (Isner lost). >When she filled out the form she said what a lot of politicians and preachers say when confronted with a prickly question: She wanted to pray on it. >Next to “Proposed Use of Records” she wrote: “As a member of the clergy, I feel a spiritual obligation to pray over executions. To do this most effectively, I need to have a detailed understanding of how executions are carried out.” Can you indicate which bit of this is confusing to you? And did you just conjour up the bit about her wanting their names, entirely from whole cloth? As it is nowhere is the text.
- rolltiide 7y agoStrategically, why do we need Alabama? Why do we need to tolerate that theocracy existing under the union anymore?
- frankbreetz 7y agoAre you proposing we get rid of Alabama? How would that work?
- penagwin 7y agoAs far as I know constitutionally we can't, there's too many issues, they're US citizens, I don't believe states can legally secede, and a bunch of other stuff. Ignore the parent, he's just spouting random inflammatory bull crap.
- rolltiide 7y agoMassive sanctions Primarily withholding of highway funding again Alabama didn't even get electricity without the feds, theyre very financially tied up with the feds to masquerade as representative of a developed nation We can single out Alabama without mentioning Alabama specifically They’ll get the benefits of being a state after conforming and dissolving their theocratic government
- gchamonlive 7y agoHonest question. How religious people in these states reconcile these two contrasting ideas, the first one being believing in the bible and thus in the 10 Commandments, and the second being allowing people to be executed under their administration?
- padobson 7y agoSeems like you're talking about the 6th commandment[0], which is more accurately described as "Thou shalt not murder", rather than "thou shalt not kill". I like Dennis Prager's commentary on the 10 commandments[1] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RENPaY043o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RENPaY043o
- frankbreetz 7y agoI went to Catholic School for 12 years, and what they believe is quite different than the Baptists in Alabama, but the Catholic Church says we should not have the death penalty unless there is a risk of the person causing harm to more people. So, in today's society (in the west at least) there is no place for the death penalty.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago> So, in today's society (in the west at least) there is no place for the death penalty. ...according to you or the Catholic Church. What other reasons do you have for there not being a death penalty?
- inflatableDodo 7y agoChristians don't generally follow the ten commandments. For instance, the bit about graven images is ignored by all but a handful of Christian sects.
- Fjolsvith 7y agoThe graven images actually refer to an ancient Hebrew practice having to do with the Kabbalah.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]