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> unless we're simply talking about people who are "productive" That is literally what the grandparent poster said, and matches the first two definitions I can

> unless we're simply talking about people who are "productive" That is literally what the grandparent poster said, and matches the first two definitions I can find on Google. Personally, I often think of this example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3033446 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3033446 It's really interesting to see how both sides approach the problem (without rushing it), but only one of them solves it. That certainly counts as a 10x difference? > "10x engineer" is a marketing gimmick used to gain leverage in various ways, IMO. I've been following the discussion, and I think that "10x is a lie" has itself become a dangerous meme. It's already hard to tell some of my clients that developer quality matters, that hiring cheap developers en masse is pointless if they can't reliably fizzbuzz. Now Developer Twitter decides to proudly proclaim that everyone is equally capable as a developer, except some of them are toxic jerks. Sigh.

KUcxrAVrtI 7y ago
This has always been the end game of social justice being funded so well. Destroy the professions and commoditize them. Fortunately for us programming has been and always will be about the transformation of text into other text with a context sensitive grammar. Something that can't be automated and will always fail. Usually with people dying as the catalyst for on-shoring jobs again.
- sooheon 7y ago
  Agree with a lot of this except the claim that professionals dwell only on certain shores.
  - gurkendoktor 7y ago
    If you lived in a $9/h region and had excellent development skills, why wouldn't you move to a $90/h region?
    - shardinator 7y ago
      Because the $90/hr regions won’t let you.
      - gurkendoktor 7y ago
        Fair enough. Not everyone will leave their family behind, not everyone will get a visa. But the "rich shores" have a massive statistical advantage in terms of talent because they attract skilled people from abroad, with little migration in the other direction: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-valley-foreign-born https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-val...
  - KUcxrAVrtI 7y ago
    Reality disagrees. If software development could be done in India, Ukraine or whatever your preferred third world country is it would be getting done there already. There's a reason why developers move to one of a handful of cities to be productive.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      It is already done in India and Ukraine. In Ukraine alone there are like 150k+ software developers.
cmiles74 7y ago
I don't believe that the majority of comments on Twitter are trying to say that every developer is as as equal as every other. Many of them are arguing that the "10x developer" idea is unrealistic in the sense that management wants to hire someone 10x more productive than everyone else (this story agrees, 10x is a big exaggeration). Some people have worked with so-called 10x developers, who have been slavishly defended from criticism by management, who are churning out piles of code that will be difficult to maintain, it seems that some of those people also have some toxic behaviors. In terms of the question "do 10x developers exist", I wonder if it really matters. An argument has been made that there are people far better at chess or football or piano than everyone else, so there must be developers who are vastly better than the average in the field. I'm not sure that software development is really the same kind of thing... But even so, we do not have the systems in place that would allow us to recognize such people. All we have, for the most part, are anecdotes from recruiters and managers and many of these stories sound self-serving and exploitative. It could be the 10x developer exists in the same sense that the 10x CEO exists: every so often one appears and seems to meet the standard. But the closer we look, the more circumstance and the people they surrounded themselves with seemed to be even more important. Often it looks like maybe the particular period of time was a factor as well. And the argument goes on and on, so on and so forth.
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  That's a more generous reading of the mood on Twitter. I also think that many people have good intentions, and are only trying to reduce the general levels of impostor syndrome. > Some people have worked with so-called 10x developers, who have been slavishly defended from criticism by management, who are churning out piles of code that will be difficult to maintain, ... And I have experienced this anti-pattern several times. But I worry that we're throwing out the child with the toxic genius bathwater. > 10x is a big exaggeration The actual actual factor is a function of your work environment. If HR hired "nice" people who failed all the trivial interview questions, would that number still seem unbelievably high? That's what some small shops do when developers are hard to find :|
  - cmiles74 7y ago

KUcxrAVrtI 7y ago

This has always been the end game of social justice being funded so well. Destroy the professions and commoditize them. Fortunately for us programming has been and always will be about the transformation of text into other text with a context sensitive grammar. Something that can't be automated and will always fail. Usually with people dying as the catalyst for on-shoring jobs again.

sooheon 7y ago
Agree with a lot of this except the claim that professionals dwell only on certain shores.
- gurkendoktor 7y ago
  If you lived in a $9/h region and had excellent development skills, why wouldn't you move to a $90/h region?
  - shardinator 7y ago
    Because the $90/hr regions won’t let you.
    - gurkendoktor 7y ago
      Fair enough. Not everyone will leave their family behind, not everyone will get a visa. But the "rich shores" have a massive statistical advantage in terms of talent because they attract skilled people from abroad, with little migration in the other direction: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-valley-foreign-born https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/37-percent-of-silicon-val...
- KUcxrAVrtI 7y ago
  Reality disagrees. If software development could be done in India, Ukraine or whatever your preferred third world country is it would be getting done there already. There's a reason why developers move to one of a handful of cities to be productive.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    It is already done in India and Ukraine. In Ukraine alone there are like 150k+ software developers.

cmiles74 7y ago

I don't believe that the majority of comments on Twitter are trying to say that every developer is as as equal as every other. Many of them are arguing that the "10x developer" idea is unrealistic in the sense that management wants to hire someone 10x more productive than everyone else (this story agrees, 10x is a big exaggeration). Some people have worked with so-called 10x developers, who have been slavishly defended from criticism by management, who are churning out piles of code that will be difficult to maintain, it seems that some of those people also have some toxic behaviors. In terms of the question "do 10x developers exist", I wonder if it really matters. An argument has been made that there are people far better at chess or football or piano than everyone else, so there must be developers who are vastly better than the average in the field. I'm not sure that software development is really the same kind of thing... But even so, we do not have the systems in place that would allow us to recognize such people. All we have, for the most part, are anecdotes from recruiters and managers and many of these stories sound self-serving and exploitative. It could be the 10x developer exists in the same sense that the 10x CEO exists: every so often one appears and seems to meet the standard. But the closer we look, the more circumstance and the people they surrounded themselves with seemed to be even more important. Often it looks like maybe the particular period of time was a factor as well. And the argument goes on and on, so on and so forth.

gurkendoktor 7y ago
That's a more generous reading of the mood on Twitter. I also think that many people have good intentions, and are only trying to reduce the general levels of impostor syndrome. > Some people have worked with so-called 10x developers, who have been slavishly defended from criticism by management, who are churning out piles of code that will be difficult to maintain, ... And I have experienced this anti-pattern several times. But I worry that we're throwing out the child with the toxic genius bathwater. > 10x is a big exaggeration The actual actual factor is a function of your work environment. If HR hired "nice" people who failed all the trivial interview questions, would that number still seem unbelievably high? That's what some small shops do when developers are hard to find :|
- cmiles74 7y ago