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> there are millions of people in deep poverty in the US. Sure, but "deep poverty" today is what "middle class" life used to be for their grandparents or great

> there are millions of people in deep poverty in the US. Sure, but "deep poverty" today is what "middle class" life used to be for their grandparents or great-grandparents and normal student life is like for most college students. Having to cook from scratch rather than eating out every day, or maybe even only having meat a few times a week. Having to go to a laundromat rather than having your own washing machine, and riding public transit or a bike/motorbike with rudimentary knowledge on how to fix it. These are hardships only when compared to extremely lofty standards of living - and if that makes you become a career criminal, it is hard to have sympathy.

adrianN 7y ago
Unfortunately humans care more about their relative wealth than their absolute wealth. So telling them that objectively their life isn't all that bad is not very effective when they see their neighbors having a lot more wealth.
- habnds 7y ago
  Scarcity means that relative wealth _is_ absolute wealth because we need to compete for resources. Falling too far behind other members of society means not being able to compete for resources successfully. Focusing on relative wealth is perfectly rational.
  - gooseus 7y ago
    Exactly, when prices are set by what the market will pay then being surrounded by people who are able to pay more for a product will drive that price up and out of your relative reach. Also, never understatement status-seeking when it comes to motivations for crime, even if your current conditions would have been considered high status 100 years ago, if you are seeking social/sexual relationships you are only going to be judged by your relative status today. This relative status-seeking is why even rich people will still risk their positions and jail over felonies that will only make them 5% richer.
sverige 7y ago
Or, you know, unable to afford rent in places where there are jobs, so being forced to live in a car near the Amazon warehouse. Lofty standards indeed.
habnds 7y ago
I think this is inaccurate and you need citations to justify the idea that those in deep poverty are better off then they were 25, 50, 100 years ago. Health outcomes, (obesity, nutrition, drug addiction ) could easily be worse. Security outcomes, (violent crime, domestic violence, police violence) could easily be worse. Economic outcomes (job security, lifetime earning expectations, minimum wage) could easily be worse. Social outcomes ( close friends, community ties, connection to close family memebers) could easily be worse. Remember that looking at averages is misleading if the distribution is changing around a constant mean. Further, the idea that crime is an economic choice, and not a socially determined choice is highly suspect. For instance, street level drug dealers make very little money [1], the average US bank robber steals ~$4,000 [2]. Crime is rarely a "rational decision" it's made in a socially constructed context. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sp/5049.pdf https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sp/5049.pdf [2] https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/06/11/what-you-should-know-before-robbing-a-bank https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/06/11/what-you-sho...
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  There is no way that Health and Security outcomes are worse today than maybe 50 years ago. The crime rate has fallen dramatically since the 90s, and health outcomes are dramatically improved between advancement of medical tech and generally improved care. Do we have an obesity problem? Sure, that's kind of a self caused issue. You could blame our food being too cheap, but the alternative is starving to death which is far less in your realm of control. Minimum wage is at its highest in direct value, luxury goods are at their cheapest. Now instead of writing a letter or traveling significant distances, you can chat with your friends all damned day. Is life hard and imperfect? Of course it is, but to suggest that somehow life is harder now than in the past 25 or 50 or 500 years is absolutely foolish.
  - habnds 7y ago
    So it should be easy for you to find sources. Life Expectancy in the US is going down [1]. That's happening as many people are living longer than ever. The difference comes from plummeting life expectancies at the bottom. Real minimum wages peaked in the 1980's [2] Calling obesity "self caused" is unreasonable. Access to food, particularly for poor people is very different today than at any time in the past, Malnutrition is totally possible alongside sufficient caloric intake. Why is the cost of "luxury goods" relevant to anything? [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/health/us-life-expectancy-study/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/health/us-life-expectancy... [2] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-real-value-u-s-minimum-wage/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-real-value-u-s-...
bluedino 7y ago
>> Having to cook from scratch rather than eating out every day, or maybe even only having meat a few times a week. Riding public transit In another Hacker News article, these would all be things we should be striving for
ssully 7y ago
You clearly have zero understanding or empathy for what living in deep poverty actually entails.
- bluGill 7y ago
  To be fair, the poster he replied to doesn't either. The only people living in deep poverty in the US are actively avoiding the help that is available to them. It has been argued that the poor in the US have it worse than the poor in Europe, but in neither case are they are in deep poverty.
  - tomjakubowski 7y ago
    Three million people in the US were living on less than $1.90 a day in 2013, and five million on less than $4. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opinion/poverty-united-states.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opinion/poverty-united-st... Extreme poverty in the US is real: https://www.al.com/news/2017/12/un_poverty_official_touring_al.html https://www.al.com/news/2017/12/un_poverty_official_touring_...
    - toasterlovin 7y ago
      I'm skeptical of the $1.90 a day number. Those people would be dead. You literally cannot buy enough food to eat with that much money. Since we generally don't see millions of people dying of starvation in the U.S., some part of the equation must be missing.
  - pas 7y ago
    Actively avoiding? What do you mean by this? Neither are in deep poverty? I happen to live in Hungary, and well, see for yourself: https://budapestbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/one-quarter-of-hungarians-at-risk-of-poverty-or-social-exclusion.jpg https://budapestbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/one-qu... https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/buffett/hungary/img/single/mahoney_gypsytown1.jpg https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/buffett/hungary/img/single/ma... (this is from Slovakia)

adrianN 7y ago

Unfortunately humans care more about their relative wealth than their absolute wealth. So telling them that objectively their life isn't all that bad is not very effective when they see their neighbors having a lot more wealth.

habnds 7y ago
Scarcity means that relative wealth _is_ absolute wealth because we need to compete for resources. Falling too far behind other members of society means not being able to compete for resources successfully. Focusing on relative wealth is perfectly rational.
- gooseus 7y ago
  Exactly, when prices are set by what the market will pay then being surrounded by people who are able to pay more for a product will drive that price up and out of your relative reach. Also, never understatement status-seeking when it comes to motivations for crime, even if your current conditions would have been considered high status 100 years ago, if you are seeking social/sexual relationships you are only going to be judged by your relative status today. This relative status-seeking is why even rich people will still risk their positions and jail over felonies that will only make them 5% richer.

sverige 7y ago

Or, you know, unable to afford rent in places where there are jobs, so being forced to live in a car near the Amazon warehouse. Lofty standards indeed.

habnds 7y ago

I think this is inaccurate and you need citations to justify the idea that those in deep poverty are better off then they were 25, 50, 100 years ago. Health outcomes, (obesity, nutrition, drug addiction ) could easily be worse. Security outcomes, (violent crime, domestic violence, police violence) could easily be worse. Economic outcomes (job security, lifetime earning expectations, minimum wage) could easily be worse. Social outcomes ( close friends, community ties, connection to close family memebers) could easily be worse. Remember that looking at averages is misleading if the distribution is changing around a constant mean. Further, the idea that crime is an economic choice, and not a socially determined choice is highly suspect. For instance, street level drug dealers make very little money [1], the average US bank robber steals ~$4,000 [2]. Crime is rarely a "rational decision" it's made in a socially constructed context. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sp/5049.pdf https://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sp/5049.pdf [2] https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/06/11/what-you-should-know-before-robbing-a-bank https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/06/11/what-you-sho...

vorpalhex 7y ago
There is no way that Health and Security outcomes are worse today than maybe 50 years ago. The crime rate has fallen dramatically since the 90s, and health outcomes are dramatically improved between advancement of medical tech and generally improved care. Do we have an obesity problem? Sure, that's kind of a self caused issue. You could blame our food being too cheap, but the alternative is starving to death which is far less in your realm of control. Minimum wage is at its highest in direct value, luxury goods are at their cheapest. Now instead of writing a letter or traveling significant distances, you can chat with your friends all damned day. Is life hard and imperfect? Of course it is, but to suggest that somehow life is harder now than in the past 25 or 50 or 500 years is absolutely foolish.
- habnds 7y ago
  So it should be easy for you to find sources. Life Expectancy in the US is going down [1]. That's happening as many people are living longer than ever. The difference comes from plummeting life expectancies at the bottom. Real minimum wages peaked in the 1980's [2] Calling obesity "self caused" is unreasonable. Access to food, particularly for poor people is very different today than at any time in the past, Malnutrition is totally possible alongside sufficient caloric intake. Why is the cost of "luxury goods" relevant to anything? [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/health/us-life-expectancy-study/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/21/health/us-life-expectancy... [2] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-real-value-u-s-minimum-wage/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualizing-real-value-u-s-...

bluedino 7y ago

>> Having to cook from scratch rather than eating out every day, or maybe even only having meat a few times a week. Riding public transit In another Hacker News article, these would all be things we should be striving for

ssully 7y ago

You clearly have zero understanding or empathy for what living in deep poverty actually entails.

bluGill 7y ago
To be fair, the poster he replied to doesn't either. The only people living in deep poverty in the US are actively avoiding the help that is available to them. It has been argued that the poor in the US have it worse than the poor in Europe, but in neither case are they are in deep poverty.
- tomjakubowski 7y ago
  Three million people in the US were living on less than $1.90 a day in 2013, and five million on less than $4. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opinion/poverty-united-states.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opinion/poverty-united-st... Extreme poverty in the US is real: https://www.al.com/news/2017/12/un_poverty_official_touring_al.html https://www.al.com/news/2017/12/un_poverty_official_touring_...
  - toasterlovin 7y ago
    I'm skeptical of the $1.90 a day number. Those people would be dead. You literally cannot buy enough food to eat with that much money. Since we generally don't see millions of people dying of starvation in the U.S., some part of the equation must be missing.
- pas 7y ago
  Actively avoiding? What do you mean by this? Neither are in deep poverty? I happen to live in Hungary, and well, see for yourself: https://budapestbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/one-quarter-of-hungarians-at-risk-of-poverty-or-social-exclusion.jpg https://budapestbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/one-qu... https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/buffett/hungary/img/single/mahoney_gypsytown1.jpg https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/buffett/hungary/img/single/ma... (this is from Slovakia)