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Ask HN: Refusing to join meetings that require proprietary programs

From now on I've made the conscious decision to stop joining meetings that requires installing the usual proprietary applications (Zoom, Skype, BlueJeans, etc). I will accept joining Hangout calls even though it's also proprietary, but at least it doesn't require that I run a random executable on my personal computer. Is anyone else also doing this? What are the challenges you had to face? I am well aware going this direction also means losing a few potential clients.

tlb 7y ago
Buy a second, cheap laptop for videoconferencing, and don't put anything valuable on it.
- ToFab123 7y ago
  or run them inside a VM.
  - throwaway83945 7y ago
    I use a QEMU VM for most of the projects I work with (rails, node, python, etc). That said, I already tried using zoom with a QEMU VM but I was never able to get the microphone jack to work with the VM.
- stefanfisk 7y ago
  or run a VM.
mrleinad 7y ago
Care to elaborate on the reasons?
- reificator 7y ago
  I'd assume for issues like this: https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-fla...
sixtypoundhound 7y ago
Key point: "download and install an executable" Yes, I'm in agreement on this one. The nice thing about a good old fashioned phone call is you can't hijack my life during the process....
- ulzeraj 7y ago
  Same here. I do not use anything that needs a java runtime or accept MS office documents that I cant open with alternative office suites. Also “keep your hands out of my kernel” so no weird third party drivers or hooks and that includes third party hypervisor software. As for the meetings I can join those as long as there is an iOS app I can install on my iPad or iPhone.
artemisyna 7y ago
Does your company not offer a corporate laptop with these executables pre-installed (and presumably, internally managed by corporate IT)?
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I work from home (remotely) so I tend to use my personal stuff.
beering 7y ago
It's usually been salespeople trying to sell me stuff when I've been asked to use proprietary video plug-ins. The calls with clients usually are scheduled by my side and use our choice (now usually Hangouts or Uberconference, both of which work in Firefox without additional executables). I always just join the call-in number on the calendar invite. If needed, I just say something along the lines of, "couldn't get the plug-in installed, sorry". Not usually been a problem other than missing the screen-share presentation.
bittercynic 7y ago
I borrow a laptop from work for zoom meetings and the like, and it seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
pfarnsworth 7y ago
Despite their recent issues, Zoom is mostly innocuous and the single best video conferencing software I've ever used. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Skype on the other hand, I'll never use. If it's part of a job, then if you're not talking about a company-supplied laptop, then get a cheap laptop yourself, or maybe you can install a VM and install the software on there and give it access to a cheap USB camera.
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sombremesa 7y ago
You can join zoom meetings on your phone without installing anything.
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I don't have a smartphone.
  - azhenley 7y ago
    The cost of losing clients is probably far more than the cost of a cheap phone or laptop.
    - ken 7y ago
      Clearly -- and therefore, throwaway83945 must be doing it for non-monetary reasons. Why is everyone offering suggestions for roundabout ways to do exactly what OP "made the conscious decision" not to do? That's not helpful.
  - mcpherrinm 7y ago
    A regular phone works. Even a payphone, since the dial-in number is toll free, at least in the US.
    - throwaway83945 7y ago
      I am not in the US.
      - rsstack 7y ago
        All the major services have dial-in numbers in most countries. If you live in Rwanda, refuse to have a smartphone, refuse to install applications on your laptop, and refuse to use web client versions of these systems - what do you want from this thread? To be in all of these categories at the same time is either irrational stubbornness or Internet trolling.
dimitar 7y ago
You use it to communicate with potential clients? I would offer an alternative to them and I think most of them will follow, but it is more of an annoyance than a serious issue to lose business over. On a separate note 10 years ago there was a serious movement to adopt open protocols like Jabber and SIP and now even open-source communities are happy in using Slack and JIRA. Looking at you Clojurians.
- ken 7y ago
  > now even open-source communities are happy in using Slack and JIRA That just means these systems aren't so hated that they have 0 users among those communities. There are open-source communities I no longer participate in, purely because of the annoying collaboration tools they switched to. Just because some people are happy with a tool doesn't mean everyone is. It means a few people in charge chose a tool, and they're implicitly selecting their community from the people who are OK with that tool. I don't know what the story is with Clojure that you refer to, but I've never had any trouble getting Clojure help on good ol' IRC. I've never left an open-source project for sticking with simple classic tools that work.
  - dimitar 7y ago
    The clojurians slack seems to be the most active community, unfortunately. I'm glad that there are people in IRC too.
executesorder66 7y ago
> Is anyone else also doing this? Kinda. I refuse to use any software that doesn't work on Linux. Open source is preferred, but at least give me something that works. I'm not going to install some shitty OS just so that I can use a chat app, or whatever. > What are the challenges you had to face? None at all. Most people at my company use windows, and Skype for business to do text and video chat. If they want to send me a message via that, I tell them that skype doesn't work on Linux so they must use something else. If they don't want to use something else, then we don't have the video chat. This is all fine for internal communication. If you have to deal with clients, then that's a more complicated issue.
sbr464 7y ago
Just use a VM or extra laptop. Client work and business in general is a combination of tradeoffs. Typically clients are coming to you to alleviate a stress in one category. Don’t add another layer.
- bArray 7y ago
  Exactly, I have a few VMs ready to spin-up just for this kind of thing. People or companies always want you to run some random crapware which I will never run on my actual system. The other point here is also clearly security - one compromised client's crapware shouldn't compromise the rest.
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I use a QEMU VM for most of the projects I work with (rails, node, python, etc). I ssh into the VM and do the work, it works great and I am happy with this setup. That said, I already tried using zoom with a QEMU VM but I was never able to get the microphone jack to work. I should try again.
anbop 7y ago
I would not hire a vendor who presented such odd requirements to me as I would see it as trying to use my company as a vehicle for your personal crusade. The installation point is valid, but I would expect it to be nulled by offering you company-owned hardware to work on.
the_common_man 7y ago
Use snap or flatpak?
- regecks 7y ago
  I like the sentiment and practice it myself, but you need to be careful with snaps. They more often than not come with the home[1] interface connected by default. To me, that somewhat defeats the purpose of running the snap. 1. https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-interface https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-interface
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I've been using flatpak and firejail and while those are excellent tools, I still get uncomfortable when running untrustworthy programs inside containers.
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willnz 7y ago
So that means you're forcing others to install Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox onto their computer as they're the only web browsers that currently support Google Hangouts.
riffraff 7y ago
Bluejeans works fine in the browser too, so if hangouts is fine so is BJN.
mcs_ 7y ago
Clients first. Clients first. I do support, 24/7, I get s..t from anything, including WhatsApp. After that I have the chance of reorganize the requests into my favorite task manager. Customers just want to know you are there... Clients first, and always replay via email. Be consistent in accept from any channel, replay, report, notify via email.
- bigiain 7y ago
  So. Much. This. This also applies to colleges as well as clients. If "meetings" implies "work" (which it _strongly_ does to me), then you use whatever the meeting requires. Your job is to do the work. Not to dictate and ensure FOSS purity amongst co workers and clients. On your _own_ hardware and for your personal comms, sure - knock yourself out. I have a similar refusal to use Facebook/Twitter for social/personal stuff. It means I get "left out" of some things where no-one remembers to mention to me an event organised exclusively thru FB, and I'm OK with that. Your boss should not be OK with you missing meetings or pissing off clients because you refuse to use Skype. Deal with it, perhaps while encouraging change from the inside without making annoying demands on everybody else - or quit. (Or be a jerk and wait until you get fired for it...)
numlock86 7y ago
> Is anyone else also doing this? Can you provide some reasons other than a seemingly random statement like "run a random executable on my personal computer", that apparently is based on some specific certain personal perception? I'd call Skype anything but random ... at least in comparison with Hangouts. What is your point? Also you might want to change your title. You talk about not joining meetings with propriety software, then mention Hangouts is okay, which - as you even mention by yourself - is proprietary software. tl;dr your post is really confusing and I am not sure what you are trying to tell.
- bigiain 7y ago
  > I'd call Skype anything but random I suspect week ago, people would have said "It's not just 'some random executable', it's _Zoom!_ What're they gonna do, leave an undisclosed web server running on your machine that allows them to remotely install whatever software they want? Ah ha! You're so paranoid!!!"
  - numlock86 7y ago
    And how exactly is Hangouts better? I mean I sort of get your argument and what you are trying to tell, but what's your punch line here?
    - bigiain 7y ago
      At least some people trust Google more than they trust Zoom?
      - throwaway83945 7y ago
        I don't, and I wish I can quit using gmail too, but I still need to find the alternative.
        numlock86 7y ago
        And what about my initial question?
logicchains 7y ago
I do a variant of this with open source projects: refuse to participate in community interaction over a proprietary platform, e.g. Slack (Clojure uses that). It's a way to support open source with relatively minimal personal cost.
mcpherrinm 7y ago
BlueJeans and Zoom both don't require installing a proprietary application, so this isn't a problem I have ever faced. You don't need to lose clients; just don't install the app. Both support joining calls from a web browser, or dialing in from a phone number. Skype also has some kind of web client but I don't know if it does video calls, or only chat. You are setting yourself up for a moral dilemma that doesn't exist.
lone_haxx0r 7y ago
I have a "clean" hard drive and a "dirty" hard drive. The clean hard drive runs Linux and I carefully curate the software that I install. The dirty hard drive runs Windows 7. I use it only when I need to do something with Windows. I never log into my bank or anything important using the dirty hard drive, so I feel relatively free to install malwaresque software on it.
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  Does it not annoy you having to reboot all the time?
  - lone_haxx0r 7y ago
    Not really. I think it's a lower price to pay in comparison to: (a) Using a "dirty" computer as my daily driver. (I wouldn't sleep at night) (b) Not being able to use proprietary programs in case of emergency. I used to boot into Windows everyday when I played League of Legends, but now I only boot into it when I need MS Word (clients love Word for some reason) or something like that. If your computer is powerful, running a "dirty" VM is another viable option.
    - suramya_tomar 7y ago
      I use Codeweavers(https://www.codeweavers.com/ https://www.codeweavers.com/) on my Debian system to run Word and other MS Office products and haven't faced any issues so far. Office was a major reason for me as well to boot into windows and with this setup I don't need to.
unixhero 7y ago
It's absolutely always Skype for Business where I am making my monthly income. This will not fly in a corporate setting. Also, Skype for Business & Teams works really well. I'd like to live in a world where free and open solutions existed - with feature parity and quality of Skype for Business.
cavisne 7y ago
If your concern is about installing an untrusted executable. Zoom actually has a web client now. For the others you could pick a platform that’s already sandboxed like iOS or Android. Or these platforms tend to support dialling in from a phone. You can even walk to a pay phone and dial in from there with cash.
- bigiain 7y ago
  I would listen to an argument that Zoom's recent behaviour makes them potentially too untrustworthy to even allow them to run javascript in a browser...
cgrealy 7y ago
It depends on who you are meeting with. If it's a FOSS collab, this seems like a reasonable stance to take. If it's in a professional capacity, eh, I honestly couldn't be bothered hiring or working with anyone under these kinds of restrictions.
- numlock86 7y ago
  What's the relation with FOSS and Hangouts, though? Also, are there any commonly used existing FOSS solutions?
  - cgrealy 7y ago
    No idea.
ussrlongbow 7y ago
I had such guy in my team, he was fired pretty soon.
paulcarroty 7y ago
> proprietary applications (Zoom, Skype, BlueJeans, etc). > I will accept joining Hangout calls You're strange, really. Use GigantiC private data pump - Google and ignore Zoom & BlueJeans.
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I don't like Google (for privacy and other reasons); however, I can join a Hangout call with a regular Firefox browser without installing additional plugins. Yes, that doesn't mean I am comfortable with using Hangout, but what are the alternatives? Jitsi?
  - numlock86 7y ago
    If "running in the browser without plugins" and getting your "I am against propriety software X, Y and Z, so I only use propriety software A and B!"-attitude openly communicated are your only concerns you could use Discord as well. You will probably reach a lot more people than with Hangouts, too.
  - paulcarroty 7y ago
    > I can join a Hangout call with a regular Firefox browser Yes, but Google can get A LOT of info from your browser. I'd suggest to grab any popular cybersecurity 101 course, it'll help to fight your paranoia. > Jitsi Yes. But if you want to communicate then should use software recommended by community/customers/company etc. "Insecure crap, I prefer my secure software!" decision will make you isolated sooner or later.
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davewasthere 7y ago
Zoom, Gotomeeting, Skype, SkypeForBusiness(Lync), Hangouts, Some shitty free meeting telephone service, Whatsapp, Email, Trello, etc... Whatever is convenient for the customer really. Often though, you get the chance to recommend a tech to someone, so take that opportunity, but I figure that I'm the tech guy. If they've got a meeting software that they're happy with, well the least I can do is fit in. I'm not too worried having a few smaller meeting-based apps on my machine though.
bartread 7y ago
I'm assuming the recent Zoom fiasco has pushed you to this, but I'm not so sure it's is an approach that's going to serve you well. It's quite likely to make you look difficult to work with in the eyes of some. Here's an example: I hate WebEx. I mean, REALLY hate WebEx. It's a totally, utterly, inexusably bad, piece of turdware. There's always some drama with AV or somebody not being able to get into the call, which without fail wastes at least 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting. It also obnoxiously announces latecomers, interrupting whatever discussion is going on. I hate it. I've had to deal with the damn cursed thing wasting so much of mine, and others, time over the years that I consider it utterly beyond the pale. More than this, call quality is often marginal at best, and it seems to deal with choppy connections much worse than many of the other options. But guess what? Some people have WebEx mandated as their corporate standard so they have to use it. And others aren't that computer savvy but they have WebEx installed and know how to use it. In every other case I just don't want the first substantive conversation I have with somebody be about how I refuse to use WebEx. So sometimes I use WebEx too. The point is this: pick your battles. From time to time you're going to deal with clients and customers whom you have to have difficult conversations with. Do you really want one of those conversations, and likely one of the first conversations you have, to be about videoconferencing software? Do you really want your position on videoconferencing software to set the tone of your ongoing relationship?
- tomjen3 7y ago
  In your case you could state that you strongly discourage the usage of that as it call quality is so poor that it is know to strongly negativity effect client outcomes. In ops case he is going to to come across as an anoying extremist.
  - bartread 7y ago
    I actually did that after a particularly bad WebEx call, suggesting we try Zoom (ironically) for our next call. Anyway, although generally better, Zoom also proved to be something of a disaster so there were obviously other factors at play. We then switched to Fuze for the next call (client's new corporate standard), and it was still a bit ropey. After that I decided it was best to just roll with it whatever they use because, with any videoconferencing or VOIP service, it's impossible to guarantee good performance on the day. Still, I maintain that WebEx has been a fiasco ninety-plus percent of the time I've used it, which is way worse than anything else. The majority of the time Zoom, Hangouts, and even Microsoft's Teams seem to work well.
cf 7y ago
I make use of https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc . I self-host and this gives me the ability to offer a high-quality video or voice stream for somebody. While I still have some bugs when contacted from an iPhone, it has been a generally easy option. Alternatively, there are webrtc solutions like talky.io and appear.in which work well enough. I have never had a client have an issue with these solutions, and which I choose is more a function of how much I trust my own setup with the goal being to move all interactions to my self-hosted solutions.
6nomads 7y ago
I often use my smartphone for such meetings, mostly Hangouts/Meet. But not using Zoom and Skype at all will provide difficulties with clients.
dajbelshaw 7y ago
When consulting, I've found that people really like zero-install video conferencing solutions based on WebRTC (e.g. appear.in / Jitsi)
ch_123 7y ago
+1 to a VM or a 'burner' laptop - this is how I've generally seen this problem solved before. Many people (particularly in large corps) are actively prohibited from using other solutions by IT and/or Legal policies.

tlb 7y ago

Buy a second, cheap laptop for videoconferencing, and don't put anything valuable on it.

ToFab123 7y ago
or run them inside a VM.
- throwaway83945 7y ago
  I use a QEMU VM for most of the projects I work with (rails, node, python, etc). That said, I already tried using zoom with a QEMU VM but I was never able to get the microphone jack to work with the VM.
stefanfisk 7y ago
or run a VM.

mrleinad 7y ago

Care to elaborate on the reasons?

reificator 7y ago
I'd assume for issues like this: https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-fla...

sixtypoundhound 7y ago

Key point: "download and install an executable" Yes, I'm in agreement on this one. The nice thing about a good old fashioned phone call is you can't hijack my life during the process....

ulzeraj 7y ago
Same here. I do not use anything that needs a java runtime or accept MS office documents that I cant open with alternative office suites. Also “keep your hands out of my kernel” so no weird third party drivers or hooks and that includes third party hypervisor software. As for the meetings I can join those as long as there is an iOS app I can install on my iPad or iPhone.

artemisyna 7y ago

Does your company not offer a corporate laptop with these executables pre-installed (and presumably, internally managed by corporate IT)?

throwaway83945 7y ago
I work from home (remotely) so I tend to use my personal stuff.

beering 7y ago

It's usually been salespeople trying to sell me stuff when I've been asked to use proprietary video plug-ins. The calls with clients usually are scheduled by my side and use our choice (now usually Hangouts or Uberconference, both of which work in Firefox without additional executables). I always just join the call-in number on the calendar invite. If needed, I just say something along the lines of, "couldn't get the plug-in installed, sorry". Not usually been a problem other than missing the screen-share presentation.

bittercynic 7y ago

I borrow a laptop from work for zoom meetings and the like, and it seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

pfarnsworth 7y ago

Despite their recent issues, Zoom is mostly innocuous and the single best video conferencing software I've ever used. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Skype on the other hand, I'll never use. If it's part of a job, then if you're not talking about a company-supplied laptop, then get a cheap laptop yourself, or maybe you can install a VM and install the software on there and give it access to a cheap USB camera.

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sombremesa 7y ago

You can join zoom meetings on your phone without installing anything.

throwaway83945 7y ago
I don't have a smartphone.
- azhenley 7y ago
  The cost of losing clients is probably far more than the cost of a cheap phone or laptop.
  - ken 7y ago
    Clearly -- and therefore, throwaway83945 must be doing it for non-monetary reasons. Why is everyone offering suggestions for roundabout ways to do exactly what OP "made the conscious decision" not to do? That's not helpful.
- mcpherrinm 7y ago
  A regular phone works. Even a payphone, since the dial-in number is toll free, at least in the US.
  - throwaway83945 7y ago
    I am not in the US.
    - rsstack 7y ago
      All the major services have dial-in numbers in most countries. If you live in Rwanda, refuse to have a smartphone, refuse to install applications on your laptop, and refuse to use web client versions of these systems - what do you want from this thread? To be in all of these categories at the same time is either irrational stubbornness or Internet trolling.

dimitar 7y ago

You use it to communicate with potential clients? I would offer an alternative to them and I think most of them will follow, but it is more of an annoyance than a serious issue to lose business over. On a separate note 10 years ago there was a serious movement to adopt open protocols like Jabber and SIP and now even open-source communities are happy in using Slack and JIRA. Looking at you Clojurians.

ken 7y ago
> now even open-source communities are happy in using Slack and JIRA That just means these systems aren't so hated that they have 0 users among those communities. There are open-source communities I no longer participate in, purely because of the annoying collaboration tools they switched to. Just because some people are happy with a tool doesn't mean everyone is. It means a few people in charge chose a tool, and they're implicitly selecting their community from the people who are OK with that tool. I don't know what the story is with Clojure that you refer to, but I've never had any trouble getting Clojure help on good ol' IRC. I've never left an open-source project for sticking with simple classic tools that work.
- dimitar 7y ago
  The clojurians slack seems to be the most active community, unfortunately. I'm glad that there are people in IRC too.

executesorder66 7y ago

> Is anyone else also doing this? Kinda. I refuse to use any software that doesn't work on Linux. Open source is preferred, but at least give me something that works. I'm not going to install some shitty OS just so that I can use a chat app, or whatever. > What are the challenges you had to face? None at all. Most people at my company use windows, and Skype for business to do text and video chat. If they want to send me a message via that, I tell them that skype doesn't work on Linux so they must use something else. If they don't want to use something else, then we don't have the video chat. This is all fine for internal communication. If you have to deal with clients, then that's a more complicated issue.

sbr464 7y ago

Just use a VM or extra laptop. Client work and business in general is a combination of tradeoffs. Typically clients are coming to you to alleviate a stress in one category. Don’t add another layer.

bArray 7y ago
Exactly, I have a few VMs ready to spin-up just for this kind of thing. People or companies always want you to run some random crapware which I will never run on my actual system. The other point here is also clearly security - one compromised client's crapware shouldn't compromise the rest.
throwaway83945 7y ago
I use a QEMU VM for most of the projects I work with (rails, node, python, etc). I ssh into the VM and do the work, it works great and I am happy with this setup. That said, I already tried using zoom with a QEMU VM but I was never able to get the microphone jack to work. I should try again.

anbop 7y ago

I would not hire a vendor who presented such odd requirements to me as I would see it as trying to use my company as a vehicle for your personal crusade. The installation point is valid, but I would expect it to be nulled by offering you company-owned hardware to work on.

the_common_man 7y ago

Use snap or flatpak?

regecks 7y ago
I like the sentiment and practice it myself, but you need to be careful with snaps. They more often than not come with the home[1] interface connected by default. To me, that somewhat defeats the purpose of running the snap. 1. https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-interface https://docs.snapcraft.io/home-interface
throwaway83945 7y ago
I've been using flatpak and firejail and while those are excellent tools, I still get uncomfortable when running untrustworthy programs inside containers.

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willnz 7y ago

So that means you're forcing others to install Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox onto their computer as they're the only web browsers that currently support Google Hangouts.

riffraff 7y ago

Bluejeans works fine in the browser too, so if hangouts is fine so is BJN.

mcs_ 7y ago

Clients first. Clients first. I do support, 24/7, I get s..t from anything, including WhatsApp. After that I have the chance of reorganize the requests into my favorite task manager. Customers just want to know you are there... Clients first, and always replay via email. Be consistent in accept from any channel, replay, report, notify via email.

bigiain 7y ago
So. Much. This. This also applies to colleges as well as clients. If "meetings" implies "work" (which it _strongly_ does to me), then you use whatever the meeting requires. Your job is to do the work. Not to dictate and ensure FOSS purity amongst co workers and clients. On your _own_ hardware and for your personal comms, sure - knock yourself out. I have a similar refusal to use Facebook/Twitter for social/personal stuff. It means I get "left out" of some things where no-one remembers to mention to me an event organised exclusively thru FB, and I'm OK with that. Your boss should not be OK with you missing meetings or pissing off clients because you refuse to use Skype. Deal with it, perhaps while encouraging change from the inside without making annoying demands on everybody else - or quit. (Or be a jerk and wait until you get fired for it...)

numlock86 7y ago

> Is anyone else also doing this? Can you provide some reasons other than a seemingly random statement like "run a random executable on my personal computer", that apparently is based on some specific certain personal perception? I'd call Skype anything but random ... at least in comparison with Hangouts. What is your point? Also you might want to change your title. You talk about not joining meetings with propriety software, then mention Hangouts is okay, which - as you even mention by yourself - is proprietary software. tl;dr your post is really confusing and I am not sure what you are trying to tell.

bigiain 7y ago
> I'd call Skype anything but random I suspect week ago, people would have said "It's not just 'some random executable', it's _Zoom!_ What're they gonna do, leave an undisclosed web server running on your machine that allows them to remotely install whatever software they want? Ah ha! You're so paranoid!!!"
- numlock86 7y ago
  And how exactly is Hangouts better? I mean I sort of get your argument and what you are trying to tell, but what's your punch line here?
  - bigiain 7y ago
    At least some people trust Google more than they trust Zoom?
    - throwaway83945 7y ago
      I don't, and I wish I can quit using gmail too, but I still need to find the alternative.
      - numlock86 7y ago
        And what about my initial question?

logicchains 7y ago

I do a variant of this with open source projects: refuse to participate in community interaction over a proprietary platform, e.g. Slack (Clojure uses that). It's a way to support open source with relatively minimal personal cost.

mcpherrinm 7y ago

BlueJeans and Zoom both don't require installing a proprietary application, so this isn't a problem I have ever faced. You don't need to lose clients; just don't install the app. Both support joining calls from a web browser, or dialing in from a phone number. Skype also has some kind of web client but I don't know if it does video calls, or only chat. You are setting yourself up for a moral dilemma that doesn't exist.

lone_haxx0r 7y ago

I have a "clean" hard drive and a "dirty" hard drive. The clean hard drive runs Linux and I carefully curate the software that I install. The dirty hard drive runs Windows 7. I use it only when I need to do something with Windows. I never log into my bank or anything important using the dirty hard drive, so I feel relatively free to install malwaresque software on it.

throwaway83945 7y ago
Does it not annoy you having to reboot all the time?
- lone_haxx0r 7y ago
  Not really. I think it's a lower price to pay in comparison to: (a) Using a "dirty" computer as my daily driver. (I wouldn't sleep at night) (b) Not being able to use proprietary programs in case of emergency. I used to boot into Windows everyday when I played League of Legends, but now I only boot into it when I need MS Word (clients love Word for some reason) or something like that. If your computer is powerful, running a "dirty" VM is another viable option.
  - suramya_tomar 7y ago
    I use Codeweavers(https://www.codeweavers.com/ https://www.codeweavers.com/) on my Debian system to run Word and other MS Office products and haven't faced any issues so far. Office was a major reason for me as well to boot into windows and with this setup I don't need to.

unixhero 7y ago

It's absolutely always Skype for Business where I am making my monthly income. This will not fly in a corporate setting. Also, Skype for Business & Teams works really well. I'd like to live in a world where free and open solutions existed - with feature parity and quality of Skype for Business.

cavisne 7y ago

If your concern is about installing an untrusted executable. Zoom actually has a web client now. For the others you could pick a platform that’s already sandboxed like iOS or Android. Or these platforms tend to support dialling in from a phone. You can even walk to a pay phone and dial in from there with cash.

bigiain 7y ago
I would listen to an argument that Zoom's recent behaviour makes them potentially too untrustworthy to even allow them to run javascript in a browser...

cgrealy 7y ago

It depends on who you are meeting with. If it's a FOSS collab, this seems like a reasonable stance to take. If it's in a professional capacity, eh, I honestly couldn't be bothered hiring or working with anyone under these kinds of restrictions.

numlock86 7y ago
What's the relation with FOSS and Hangouts, though? Also, are there any commonly used existing FOSS solutions?
- cgrealy 7y ago
  No idea.

ussrlongbow 7y ago

I had such guy in my team, he was fired pretty soon.

paulcarroty 7y ago

> proprietary applications (Zoom, Skype, BlueJeans, etc). > I will accept joining Hangout calls You're strange, really. Use GigantiC private data pump - Google and ignore Zoom & BlueJeans.

throwaway83945 7y ago
I don't like Google (for privacy and other reasons); however, I can join a Hangout call with a regular Firefox browser without installing additional plugins. Yes, that doesn't mean I am comfortable with using Hangout, but what are the alternatives? Jitsi?
- numlock86 7y ago
  If "running in the browser without plugins" and getting your "I am against propriety software X, Y and Z, so I only use propriety software A and B!"-attitude openly communicated are your only concerns you could use Discord as well. You will probably reach a lot more people than with Hangouts, too.
- paulcarroty 7y ago
  > I can join a Hangout call with a regular Firefox browser Yes, but Google can get A LOT of info from your browser. I'd suggest to grab any popular cybersecurity 101 course, it'll help to fight your paranoia. > Jitsi Yes. But if you want to communicate then should use software recommended by community/customers/company etc. "Insecure crap, I prefer my secure software!" decision will make you isolated sooner or later.

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davewasthere 7y ago

Zoom, Gotomeeting, Skype, SkypeForBusiness(Lync), Hangouts, Some shitty free meeting telephone service, Whatsapp, Email, Trello, etc... Whatever is convenient for the customer really. Often though, you get the chance to recommend a tech to someone, so take that opportunity, but I figure that I'm the tech guy. If they've got a meeting software that they're happy with, well the least I can do is fit in. I'm not too worried having a few smaller meeting-based apps on my machine though.

bartread 7y ago

I'm assuming the recent Zoom fiasco has pushed you to this, but I'm not so sure it's is an approach that's going to serve you well. It's quite likely to make you look difficult to work with in the eyes of some. Here's an example: I hate WebEx. I mean, REALLY hate WebEx. It's a totally, utterly, inexusably bad, piece of turdware. There's always some drama with AV or somebody not being able to get into the call, which without fail wastes at least 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting. It also obnoxiously announces latecomers, interrupting whatever discussion is going on. I hate it. I've had to deal with the damn cursed thing wasting so much of mine, and others, time over the years that I consider it utterly beyond the pale. More than this, call quality is often marginal at best, and it seems to deal with choppy connections much worse than many of the other options. But guess what? Some people have WebEx mandated as their corporate standard so they have to use it. And others aren't that computer savvy but they have WebEx installed and know how to use it. In every other case I just don't want the first substantive conversation I have with somebody be about how I refuse to use WebEx. So sometimes I use WebEx too. The point is this: pick your battles. From time to time you're going to deal with clients and customers whom you have to have difficult conversations with. Do you really want one of those conversations, and likely one of the first conversations you have, to be about videoconferencing software? Do you really want your position on videoconferencing software to set the tone of your ongoing relationship?

tomjen3 7y ago
In your case you could state that you strongly discourage the usage of that as it call quality is so poor that it is know to strongly negativity effect client outcomes. In ops case he is going to to come across as an anoying extremist.
- bartread 7y ago
  I actually did that after a particularly bad WebEx call, suggesting we try Zoom (ironically) for our next call. Anyway, although generally better, Zoom also proved to be something of a disaster so there were obviously other factors at play. We then switched to Fuze for the next call (client's new corporate standard), and it was still a bit ropey. After that I decided it was best to just roll with it whatever they use because, with any videoconferencing or VOIP service, it's impossible to guarantee good performance on the day. Still, I maintain that WebEx has been a fiasco ninety-plus percent of the time I've used it, which is way worse than anything else. The majority of the time Zoom, Hangouts, and even Microsoft's Teams seem to work well.

cf 7y ago

I make use of https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc https://github.com/strukturag/spreed-webrtc . I self-host and this gives me the ability to offer a high-quality video or voice stream for somebody. While I still have some bugs when contacted from an iPhone, it has been a generally easy option. Alternatively, there are webrtc solutions like talky.io and appear.in which work well enough. I have never had a client have an issue with these solutions, and which I choose is more a function of how much I trust my own setup with the goal being to move all interactions to my self-hosted solutions.

6nomads 7y ago

I often use my smartphone for such meetings, mostly Hangouts/Meet. But not using Zoom and Skype at all will provide difficulties with clients.

dajbelshaw 7y ago

When consulting, I've found that people really like zero-install video conferencing solutions based on WebRTC (e.g. appear.in / Jitsi)

ch_123 7y ago

+1 to a VM or a 'burner' laptop - this is how I've generally seen this problem solved before. Many people (particularly in large corps) are actively prohibited from using other solutions by IT and/or Legal policies.