8 ms·

Do you have any citations for what seems like an extreme claim in your second paragraph?

lettergram 7y ago
Credit scores? This is a fairly widely known fact that honestly shouldn’t need citations. There’s a reason banks secure credit cards from people with no credit history. There’s a reason insurance in Florida is different than the rest of the U.S. etc
- URSpider94 7y ago
  First off, credit scores don’t necessarily correlate directly to honesty, they correlate to likelihood to pay back a debt, which could be driven by unfortunate circumstances like a sudden medical expense or loss of a job. Someone who is hit by a car and spends six months in the hospital may have a crap credit score and still be an honest person. Second, the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope (there are good and bad people everywhere), and partly the result of generations of well-documented racist policies by the government and banks that prevented those areas from being developed. Third, nobody said the cars were getting stolen from “bad neighborhoods”. What the article says is that the vehicles were being driven to an area just outside of the Car2Go coverage area and dumped there.
  - icxa 7y ago
    > the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope The concept of a "bad neighborhood" comes from crime statistics, not racist tropes. Either crime (theft, robbery, fraud, et all) is high, or it is not high, race be damned. Subscribers to a particular political ideology need to calm down with the whole "your facts/science are racist" bit, because it hurts everyone overall in the long run.
    - controlweather 7y ago
      You’re as dumb as god made you it seems. Some places have bad neighborhoods that are super white trash and have nothing to do with your self induced racist battle fantasies.
    - onion2k 7y ago
      The level of crime in an area correlates far more closely to poverty than race, so suggesting a bad neighbourhood is bad because of the race of people who live there rather than other factors probably is racist.
      - MrScruff 7y ago
        True but the first poster to mention race was the one bringing up the issue of racism.
      - Noumenon72 7y ago
        Given the extremely high correlation of crime to race, that seems unlikely. https://www.quora.com/Are-crime-rates-correlated-with-ethnicity-or-poverty/answers/86844434 https://www.quora.com/Are-crime-rates-correlated-with-ethnic...
        inferiorhuman 7y ago
        Given the extremely high correlation of crime to race, that seems unlikely. Ouch man, you're not even going to try to dog whistle? From your link: As of 2003 West Virginia Blacks accounted for just 3.2% of the total population and 34.9% of the total prison population. Simply translated: White areas are safer areas. That is an irrefutable fact. The poverty argument, or excuse more accurately, can be torn to shreds time-after-time. There are so many conclusions being jumped to there that you've probably worn the mat out already. All of that racist bullshit completely ignores the disparities in enforcement, prosecution, and sentencing. As an added bonus it completely misinterprets how the FBI categories race. But hey, maybe you can get a good deal on a dog whistle for Prime Day.
  - dmix 7y ago
    > the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope There are plenty of "bad neighbourhoods" with white people and every nationality. These same bad neighbourhoods exist in UK, Canada, across Asia and Latin America, etc. It's quite rare to find any large urban area without one. It's a human problem not a race one and it's hardly a trope. It's very much real.
- Spooky23 7y ago
  Credit scores measure behavior, not your attributes. The issue here was fraud. My credit score doesn’t help you assess risk if someone else is impersonating me.
  - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
    They also don't necessarily correlate correctly with behavior. If you actively avoid debt, for instance, you are essentially penalized with regard to credit score.
    - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
      That’s a feature, not a bug, the most profitable people are the ones that go into debt, never miss payments but also never pay it off.
      - rjf72 7y ago
        I've read this as the explanation multiple times, but I think there's an even more obvious explanation: people that go into debt, never miss repayments, and never pay it off are more likely to continue paying their debt off on time than somebody who never takes on or retains debt. As but one component to this a person who never takes on debt has, tautologically, managed to live a life without any need of debt. That implies he would have little difficulty continuing to live a life without access to credit. Because of this, he will generally have substantially less concern about his credit rating than a person who depends on credit for their basic livelihood.
    - ceejayoz 7y ago
      I'm not sure that doesn't correlate. If I avoid debt for a decade, suddenly seeking debt should be a bit of a red flag, and I should have a correspondingly low credit score.
      - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
        But the problem is credit scores are used as proxies for other purposes.
- axaxs 7y ago
  I'm generally with you until the end sentence. But, insurance in Florida is like insurance anywhere else, so not sure what you're alluding to...
  - lettergram 7y ago
    I’m referring to the fact that Florida has much more expensive home insurance (and fewer home insurance companies) due to the risks associated with said region. A “neighborhood”, if you will (from the grand parent post). The insurance companies didn’t lower their standards, they offset their risks by charging more or being unavailable entirely.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      Does Florida even have any non taxpayer subsidized entities offering flood insurance for homes? I thought all coastal regions were subsidized by the National Flood Insurance Program.
      - axaxs 7y ago
        Ah..so I think I can answer this correctly as it's something I researched prior to moving here. So, if you are in a flood zone, you will be required to get flood insurance IF you mortgage your house, as the lender will require it. To my knowledge, it's very expensive and typically only one program exists (probably the one you are referring to). If you do not live in a flood zone, it varies a lot. Florida requires new homes to be built to appropriate hurricane proof codes since Andrew, so newer homes insurance are about like anywhere else in the nation. Older homes are somewhat more expensive, but usually not insane.
Spooky23 7y ago
Translation: Keep your expensive stuff away from brown people. Kind of a disgusting attitude that isn’t acceptable for a business with aspirations of displacing personal cars. This happened in the 90s with rental cars. Organized insurance fraud (fake accidents with fake or overblown injuries) was incredibly rampant in Brooklyn, to the point that renting cars without significant deposits became difficult if you were from certain zip codes. In this case, the company decided that performing due diligence on customers to determine whether they are real increased friction too much. They did this because shittier companies like Uber push the risks of inviting anonymous people into their cars onto independent contractors.
- taneq 7y ago
  I’ve thought about this a bit recently and I wonder how much it’s actually “poor people” who are the target of this prejudice and “brown people” just get tarred with that brush. Nobody thinks rich brown people are automatically criminals.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Nobody thinks rich brown people are automatically criminals. Really? You’ve never heard of racial profiling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/07/29/police-held-mission-impossible-actor-ving-rhames-at-gunpoint-for-entering-his-own-home/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w... https://newsone.com/3812066/black-doctor-racial-profiling-atlanta/ https://newsone.com/3812066/black-doctor-racial-profiling-at...
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      The parent's theory would conclude that the police were using race as a proxy for being rich or poor, not as an end in itself. I guess you could test it by putting everybody's credit score on their license plate. Yikes, what a nightmare.
      - taneq 7y ago
nickpsecurity 7y ago
The crime statistics in the neighborhoods should suffice. One thing I periodically see on HN is how companies are discriminating against (group here) because they aren't operating in high-crime neighborhoods. Obviously, a company maximizing revenues and minimizing liabilities will avoid such areas. So will most individuals delivering to them that don't want to get robbed (most likely), raped, or killed. They're more interested in playing it safe given there's piles of folks out to get them and alternatives with fewer risks. Funniest thing: most folks griping about this try to avoid the same areas and aren't volunteering to deliver high-value goods to them to address any perceived gaps. That's because they think the same things as or aren't much more inclusive than the people they're griping about. Virtue signaling and slacktivism over real activism for the groups they supposedly want to help every day.
- dleslie 7y ago
  Homelessness might evaporate over night if just a small fraction of home dwellers opened their doors to those in need; but there's good reason why doing so is prohibitively untenable, and the solutions are more complicated than simply making a bed or couch available. I don't think it's fair to claim that that who don't volunteer are virtue signaling slacktivists; they may simply believe the solutions must come from larger institutions than individual action.
- dmix 7y ago
  > That's because they think the same things It’s mostly because this type of worldview filters everything through the lens of power and when viewed through this context the way to ‘fix’ it is by tipping the scales culturally by not acknowledging the things that may cause a stigma and prevent ‘access’ to resources and jobs. So it’s probably less about what they believe to be true vs they think it’s not helpful to say it out loud.
- User23 7y ago
  I'm still waiting for the startup that solves the burning problem of a lack of healthy food options in poor minority neighborhoods. A twice weekly food truck that offered fresh healthy produce and meats at reasonable prices would greatly improve health and well-being in those areas.

Credit scores? This is a fairly widely known fact that honestly shouldn’t need citations. There’s a reason banks secure credit cards from people with no credit history. There’s a reason insurance in Florida is different than the rest of the U.S. etc

URSpider94 7y ago
First off, credit scores don’t necessarily correlate directly to honesty, they correlate to likelihood to pay back a debt, which could be driven by unfortunate circumstances like a sudden medical expense or loss of a job. Someone who is hit by a car and spends six months in the hospital may have a crap credit score and still be an honest person. Second, the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope (there are good and bad people everywhere), and partly the result of generations of well-documented racist policies by the government and banks that prevented those areas from being developed. Third, nobody said the cars were getting stolen from “bad neighborhoods”. What the article says is that the vehicles were being driven to an area just outside of the Car2Go coverage area and dumped there.
- icxa 7y ago
  > the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope The concept of a "bad neighborhood" comes from crime statistics, not racist tropes. Either crime (theft, robbery, fraud, et all) is high, or it is not high, race be damned. Subscribers to a particular political ideology need to calm down with the whole "your facts/science are racist" bit, because it hurts everyone overall in the long run.
  - controlweather 7y ago
    You’re as dumb as god made you it seems. Some places have bad neighborhoods that are super white trash and have nothing to do with your self induced racist battle fantasies.
  - onion2k 7y ago
    The level of crime in an area correlates far more closely to poverty than race, so suggesting a bad neighbourhood is bad because of the race of people who live there rather than other factors probably is racist.
    - MrScruff 7y ago
      True but the first poster to mention race was the one bringing up the issue of racism.
    - Noumenon72 7y ago
      Given the extremely high correlation of crime to race, that seems unlikely. https://www.quora.com/Are-crime-rates-correlated-with-ethnicity-or-poverty/answers/86844434 https://www.quora.com/Are-crime-rates-correlated-with-ethnic...
      - inferiorhuman 7y ago
        Given the extremely high correlation of crime to race, that seems unlikely. Ouch man, you're not even going to try to dog whistle? From your link: As of 2003 West Virginia Blacks accounted for just 3.2% of the total population and 34.9% of the total prison population. Simply translated: White areas are safer areas. That is an irrefutable fact. The poverty argument, or excuse more accurately, can be torn to shreds time-after-time. There are so many conclusions being jumped to there that you've probably worn the mat out already. All of that racist bullshit completely ignores the disparities in enforcement, prosecution, and sentencing. As an added bonus it completely misinterprets how the FBI categories race. But hey, maybe you can get a good deal on a dog whistle for Prime Day.
- dmix 7y ago
  > the whole concept of “bad neighborhoods” where people aren’t trustworthy is partly a racist trope There are plenty of "bad neighbourhoods" with white people and every nationality. These same bad neighbourhoods exist in UK, Canada, across Asia and Latin America, etc. It's quite rare to find any large urban area without one. It's a human problem not a race one and it's hardly a trope. It's very much real.
Spooky23 7y ago
Credit scores measure behavior, not your attributes. The issue here was fraud. My credit score doesn’t help you assess risk if someone else is impersonating me.
- barbecue_sauce 7y ago
  They also don't necessarily correlate correctly with behavior. If you actively avoid debt, for instance, you are essentially penalized with regard to credit score.
  - fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
    That’s a feature, not a bug, the most profitable people are the ones that go into debt, never miss payments but also never pay it off.
    - rjf72 7y ago
      I've read this as the explanation multiple times, but I think there's an even more obvious explanation: people that go into debt, never miss repayments, and never pay it off are more likely to continue paying their debt off on time than somebody who never takes on or retains debt. As but one component to this a person who never takes on debt has, tautologically, managed to live a life without any need of debt. That implies he would have little difficulty continuing to live a life without access to credit. Because of this, he will generally have substantially less concern about his credit rating than a person who depends on credit for their basic livelihood.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    I'm not sure that doesn't correlate. If I avoid debt for a decade, suddenly seeking debt should be a bit of a red flag, and I should have a correspondingly low credit score.
    - barbecue_sauce 7y ago
      But the problem is credit scores are used as proxies for other purposes.
axaxs 7y ago
I'm generally with you until the end sentence. But, insurance in Florida is like insurance anywhere else, so not sure what you're alluding to...
- lettergram 7y ago
  I’m referring to the fact that Florida has much more expensive home insurance (and fewer home insurance companies) due to the risks associated with said region. A “neighborhood”, if you will (from the grand parent post). The insurance companies didn’t lower their standards, they offset their risks by charging more or being unavailable entirely.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Does Florida even have any non taxpayer subsidized entities offering flood insurance for homes? I thought all coastal regions were subsidized by the National Flood Insurance Program.
    - axaxs 7y ago
      Ah..so I think I can answer this correctly as it's something I researched prior to moving here. So, if you are in a flood zone, you will be required to get flood insurance IF you mortgage your house, as the lender will require it. To my knowledge, it's very expensive and typically only one program exists (probably the one you are referring to). If you do not live in a flood zone, it varies a lot. Florida requires new homes to be built to appropriate hurricane proof codes since Andrew, so newer homes insurance are about like anywhere else in the nation. Older homes are somewhat more expensive, but usually not insane.

Spooky23 7y ago

Translation: Keep your expensive stuff away from brown people. Kind of a disgusting attitude that isn’t acceptable for a business with aspirations of displacing personal cars. This happened in the 90s with rental cars. Organized insurance fraud (fake accidents with fake or overblown injuries) was incredibly rampant in Brooklyn, to the point that renting cars without significant deposits became difficult if you were from certain zip codes. In this case, the company decided that performing due diligence on customers to determine whether they are real increased friction too much. They did this because shittier companies like Uber push the risks of inviting anonymous people into their cars onto independent contractors.

taneq 7y ago
I’ve thought about this a bit recently and I wonder how much it’s actually “poor people” who are the target of this prejudice and “brown people” just get tarred with that brush. Nobody thinks rich brown people are automatically criminals.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Nobody thinks rich brown people are automatically criminals. Really? You’ve never heard of racial profiling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/07/29/police-held-mission-impossible-actor-ving-rhames-at-gunpoint-for-entering-his-own-home/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/w... https://newsone.com/3812066/black-doctor-racial-profiling-atlanta/ https://newsone.com/3812066/black-doctor-racial-profiling-at...
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    The parent's theory would conclude that the police were using race as a proxy for being rich or poor, not as an end in itself. I guess you could test it by putting everybody's credit score on their license plate. Yikes, what a nightmare.
    - taneq 7y ago

nickpsecurity 7y ago

The crime statistics in the neighborhoods should suffice. One thing I periodically see on HN is how companies are discriminating against (group here) because they aren't operating in high-crime neighborhoods. Obviously, a company maximizing revenues and minimizing liabilities will avoid such areas. So will most individuals delivering to them that don't want to get robbed (most likely), raped, or killed. They're more interested in playing it safe given there's piles of folks out to get them and alternatives with fewer risks. Funniest thing: most folks griping about this try to avoid the same areas and aren't volunteering to deliver high-value goods to them to address any perceived gaps. That's because they think the same things as or aren't much more inclusive than the people they're griping about. Virtue signaling and slacktivism over real activism for the groups they supposedly want to help every day.

dleslie 7y ago
Homelessness might evaporate over night if just a small fraction of home dwellers opened their doors to those in need; but there's good reason why doing so is prohibitively untenable, and the solutions are more complicated than simply making a bed or couch available. I don't think it's fair to claim that that who don't volunteer are virtue signaling slacktivists; they may simply believe the solutions must come from larger institutions than individual action.
dmix 7y ago
> That's because they think the same things It’s mostly because this type of worldview filters everything through the lens of power and when viewed through this context the way to ‘fix’ it is by tipping the scales culturally by not acknowledging the things that may cause a stigma and prevent ‘access’ to resources and jobs. So it’s probably less about what they believe to be true vs they think it’s not helpful to say it out loud.
User23 7y ago
I'm still waiting for the startup that solves the burning problem of a lack of healthy food options in poor minority neighborhoods. A twice weekly food truck that offered fresh healthy produce and meats at reasonable prices would greatly improve health and well-being in those areas.