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> It made me intensely uncomfortable to have someone hanging around just to attend to my needs, and tell them to do menial chores for me. >And yet, when I thou

> It made me intensely uncomfortable to have someone hanging around just to attend to my needs, and tell them to do menial chores for me. >And yet, when I thought about it, I realized that I had no problem with janitors or baristas doing dirty work for me. In order for the economics of having a personal servant to work out, there needs to be a fairly grotesque level of income inequality, driven by high levels of societal and legal inequality. That isn’t the case when ‘being served’ by waitstaff or a barista, who can both walk across the street and afford the same level of service you got from them at a different establishment.

deogeo 7y ago
> In order for the economics of having a personal servant to work out, there needs to be a fairly grotesque level of income inequality, driven by high levels of societal and legal inequality. If the master has 10x the income of their servant, that means they are spending only 10% of their income on the servant. I.e., that's a manageable proportion to spend for the significant time-savings that having a servant represents. The US (and many other countries) have income inequalities that far exceed a factor of 10. Honestly if the divide between the lowest and highest income was a mere 10x, I would not be worried about inequality at all. And I can't agree with "driven by high levels of societal and legal inequality" either. While high societal and legal inequality certainly exist (and probably help somewhat), the concentration of capital is, I think, mainly caused by more fundamental market forces. Synergy, anti-competitive practices, barriers to entry, economies of scale, mergers, and so on. Lobbying for laws that entrench existing corporations is one of the factors, that could fall under "societal and legal inequality", but I think capital would concentrate even without that, albeit slightly slower.
- closeparen 7y ago
  Interestingly, 90th vs. 10th percentile consumption is about 3x [0]. Income is >10x as you mention, but this mostly reflects the growth of investment accounts, not a difference in how people actually live. [0] https://voxeu.org/article/consumption-and-income-inequality-us-1960s https://voxeu.org/article/consumption-and-income-inequality-...
Swizec 7y ago
Funny, a personal servant makes us uneasy, but a personal/executive assistant does not. What’s the difference? They’re both employees and both are being paid to do tasks that need to get done but aren’t worth their boss’s time. Is it the extra indirection of the salary coming from company instead of personal coffers that does it? What if the person hiring the assistant has 100% ownership of the company like in the case of a small business?
- empath75 7y ago
  Generally the executive assistant is paid for by the company and he or she works for the company, just like the executive does. In fact there are lots of management types who don’t make significantly more that their assistants do.
  - creaghpatr 7y ago
    Even the assistants often times have their own assistants, very common in Hollywood.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  When I had a corporate job, the administrative assistant to the big boss in my department had real power as de facto gatekeeper and seemed to be quite well compensated. It's a role that would have been called secretary at one time. The title change was intended to show more respect and try ditch some historical social baggage for such jobs.
  - adrianratnapala 7y ago
    Which is an example of the the euphemism treadmill. Secretary means secret-keeper and has built into it connotations at least of trust and often of power. Which is why top officials of many great ministries ion are called secretaries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Xgd7Cjm98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Xgd7Cjm98
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
0815test 7y ago
Not "income inequality", but inequality in the marginal disutility of labor. Someone who works many hours per week in high-effort jobs will be eager to outsource even trivial tasks to a "gig economy" worker who is in a sharply different position. That worker may have f!!k-you money of their own and be working at an "easy" job to make some extra change, for all we know - the exchange works all the same, and leaves both better off.
- antonvs 7y ago
  > That worker may have f!!k-you money of their own and be working at an "easy" job to make some extra change, for all we know I would bet that is incredibly uncommon compared to the obvious alternative, which is someone working to make ends meet at the best job they can find because of who knows what constraints. Without data, it seems disingenuous to suggest otherwise, although I'm sure it's the kind of thing Uber employees tell themselves.
newhotelowner 7y ago
Is it really that case? Having maid is pretty common in bay area. They come in once or twice a week to clean your house, and do laundry. There are many people I know had someone come and cook meals for them on weekdays. I moved from bay area to Ohio for a business. I bought a used Jeep from a dealership out of town. The salesman that sold me the car lives where my hotel is. He would pick up/drop off my car from my business for oil change/regular maintenance. After a couple of times, I told him I will do myself as I started feel different. Instead of a personal cook, now you use doordash to get food from restaurant. The cook at the restaurant or person delivering food can use the same service. Similarly when we had servants in India, we would eat the same food, and work in the same farms. Living situation were more segregated just like able to afford in Palo Alto vs East Palo Alto.
- empath75 7y ago
  > Having maid is pretty common in Bay Area I did say it requires grotesque levels of income inequality. In all seriousness, a maid service coming in once a month is not the same thing as having live in servants.
  - narrator 7y ago
    One of the problems with live-in servants is this is likely to create an employer/employee relationship between you and your servant which creates a massive tax, liability and paperwork headache. That's why it's far less common in the U.S.
- lacampbell 7y ago
  The Singapore/Hong Kong/Taiwan style arrangement is for the maid to live in with you. Conditions are often pretty harsh, ie passports are with-held, phones are confiscated, and they have one day off a week. Not really comparable to a once or twice a week visit from the maid.
mc32 7y ago
Income inequality within a country isn’t necessary for people to be able to afford a maid —however, it comes with s proviso, that the served and the server come from different economies. So you can have maids in Singapore or Hong Kong, but predominantly these maids are from lesser economies like The Philippines or Indonesia. And before someone says that is income inequality then you have to consider all of globalization (née international trade) “income inequality” which would be absurd because then everything is income inequality and it defines nothing in particular.
eevilspock 7y ago
> who can both walk across the street and afford the same level of service The people (often of color) who work in the back of the nice restaurants everyone with means loves to eat at can't afford to eat there, much less live near their work. The nannies who take care of the children of high earners (enabling them to be high earners and avoid the stress of a big chunk of parenting) can't afford to have nannies for their own kids. In fact, they often end up having less time with their own children than they do with their "masters" kids. I could go on and on. Your cherry picking the waitstaff (usually white people, who get high tips) and baristas makes your argument better; though I'm sure most baristas will disagree with you. Making coffee in a rather social setting is a rather nice job where you interact with customers, and can be fun (I've done it). What about the janitors, who usually work at night, alone, cleaning our toilets (I've done that too)? It is very alienating. If you did that for a year, the stuff Marx wrote about stops being some intellectual hocus pocus and actually starts to ring very very true. What about the farm workers that pick your strawberries and blueberries for that $14 plate of pancakes? Again I could go on and on.
- c22 7y ago
  Having spoken with some homeless people I think many of the people working in the back of the restaurant actually do "live" quite nearby.
malandrew 7y ago
Not all inequity is social and legal. A lot of inequity arises from inequity of output. An engineer for La Marzocco can make improvements to an expresso machine that improves the productivity/quality output of every barista using a La Marzocco machine such that they can pour a better latte and get more tips. Since there are hundreds of thousands of baristas that benefit from the changes of that engineer (or team of engineers), it is reasonable for there to be extreme inequity between baristas and the engineer that improved the productivity of many many baristas. I honestly don't see why people are so uncomfortable with inequity. A worthwhile thought experiment is to imagine a world with perfect equity across everyone in society. Once you consider the consequences of perfect equity, especially second and third order effects, it gets pretty dystopian pretty fast. For example, most of those with the most talent to offer to improve the lives of everyone else cease to pursue vocations where they provide the most value to the world. Instead they pursue vocations they enjoy or find easy if they pursue a vocation at all. If there is perfect equity, why work. The pace of improvements in quality of life across all society would slow to a crawl, if not stop or possibly even reverse. Seeing as all humans, regardless of where you are in society today, are all basically on a hedonic treadmill and are most content when they see improvements in their circumstances over the course of their life, perfect equity would be a disaster. The only exception to this would be maybe someone who has reached a Daoist/Buddhist level of contentment in all aspects of how they experience and interact with the world. To be clear, I'm not arguing that extreme inequity is good either. Instead what I'm saying is that inequity can be benign or even beneficial and that the ideal outcome for the most people is achieved when the power law distribution of inequity isn't extreme. e.g. a distribution of -10/x is preferable to a distribution of -1/(10x). The more smoothly sloped the power law distribution of inequity (less extreme tails), the more room there is for individuals to experience gradual improvements in one's circumstances and the more clearly does a individual experience a positive relationship between effort and reward. Experiencing an improvement in one's condition and have stewardship over that improvement both contribute to being content wherever you are on that distribution.

deogeo 7y ago

> In order for the economics of having a personal servant to work out, there needs to be a fairly grotesque level of income inequality, driven by high levels of societal and legal inequality. If the master has 10x the income of their servant, that means they are spending only 10% of their income on the servant. I.e., that's a manageable proportion to spend for the significant time-savings that having a servant represents. The US (and many other countries) have income inequalities that far exceed a factor of 10. Honestly if the divide between the lowest and highest income was a mere 10x, I would not be worried about inequality at all. And I can't agree with "driven by high levels of societal and legal inequality" either. While high societal and legal inequality certainly exist (and probably help somewhat), the concentration of capital is, I think, mainly caused by more fundamental market forces. Synergy, anti-competitive practices, barriers to entry, economies of scale, mergers, and so on. Lobbying for laws that entrench existing corporations is one of the factors, that could fall under "societal and legal inequality", but I think capital would concentrate even without that, albeit slightly slower.

closeparen 7y ago
Interestingly, 90th vs. 10th percentile consumption is about 3x [0]. Income is >10x as you mention, but this mostly reflects the growth of investment accounts, not a difference in how people actually live. [0] https://voxeu.org/article/consumption-and-income-inequality-us-1960s https://voxeu.org/article/consumption-and-income-inequality-...

Swizec 7y ago

Funny, a personal servant makes us uneasy, but a personal/executive assistant does not. What’s the difference? They’re both employees and both are being paid to do tasks that need to get done but aren’t worth their boss’s time. Is it the extra indirection of the salary coming from company instead of personal coffers that does it? What if the person hiring the assistant has 100% ownership of the company like in the case of a small business?

empath75 7y ago
Generally the executive assistant is paid for by the company and he or she works for the company, just like the executive does. In fact there are lots of management types who don’t make significantly more that their assistants do.
- creaghpatr 7y ago
  Even the assistants often times have their own assistants, very common in Hollywood.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
When I had a corporate job, the administrative assistant to the big boss in my department had real power as de facto gatekeeper and seemed to be quite well compensated. It's a role that would have been called secretary at one time. The title change was intended to show more respect and try ditch some historical social baggage for such jobs.
- adrianratnapala 7y ago
  Which is an example of the the euphemism treadmill. Secretary means secret-keeper and has built into it connotations at least of trust and often of power. Which is why top officials of many great ministries ion are called secretaries. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Xgd7Cjm98 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Xgd7Cjm98
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago

0815test 7y ago

Not "income inequality", but inequality in the marginal disutility of labor. Someone who works many hours per week in high-effort jobs will be eager to outsource even trivial tasks to a "gig economy" worker who is in a sharply different position. That worker may have f!!k-you money of their own and be working at an "easy" job to make some extra change, for all we know - the exchange works all the same, and leaves both better off.

antonvs 7y ago
> That worker may have f!!k-you money of their own and be working at an "easy" job to make some extra change, for all we know I would bet that is incredibly uncommon compared to the obvious alternative, which is someone working to make ends meet at the best job they can find because of who knows what constraints. Without data, it seems disingenuous to suggest otherwise, although I'm sure it's the kind of thing Uber employees tell themselves.

newhotelowner 7y ago

Is it really that case? Having maid is pretty common in bay area. They come in once or twice a week to clean your house, and do laundry. There are many people I know had someone come and cook meals for them on weekdays. I moved from bay area to Ohio for a business. I bought a used Jeep from a dealership out of town. The salesman that sold me the car lives where my hotel is. He would pick up/drop off my car from my business for oil change/regular maintenance. After a couple of times, I told him I will do myself as I started feel different. Instead of a personal cook, now you use doordash to get food from restaurant. The cook at the restaurant or person delivering food can use the same service. Similarly when we had servants in India, we would eat the same food, and work in the same farms. Living situation were more segregated just like able to afford in Palo Alto vs East Palo Alto.

empath75 7y ago
> Having maid is pretty common in Bay Area I did say it requires grotesque levels of income inequality. In all seriousness, a maid service coming in once a month is not the same thing as having live in servants.
- narrator 7y ago
  One of the problems with live-in servants is this is likely to create an employer/employee relationship between you and your servant which creates a massive tax, liability and paperwork headache. That's why it's far less common in the U.S.
lacampbell 7y ago
The Singapore/Hong Kong/Taiwan style arrangement is for the maid to live in with you. Conditions are often pretty harsh, ie passports are with-held, phones are confiscated, and they have one day off a week. Not really comparable to a once or twice a week visit from the maid.

mc32 7y ago

Income inequality within a country isn’t necessary for people to be able to afford a maid —however, it comes with s proviso, that the served and the server come from different economies. So you can have maids in Singapore or Hong Kong, but predominantly these maids are from lesser economies like The Philippines or Indonesia. And before someone says that is income inequality then you have to consider all of globalization (née international trade) “income inequality” which would be absurd because then everything is income inequality and it defines nothing in particular.

eevilspock 7y ago

> who can both walk across the street and afford the same level of service The people (often of color) who work in the back of the nice restaurants everyone with means loves to eat at can't afford to eat there, much less live near their work. The nannies who take care of the children of high earners (enabling them to be high earners and avoid the stress of a big chunk of parenting) can't afford to have nannies for their own kids. In fact, they often end up having less time with their own children than they do with their "masters" kids. I could go on and on. Your cherry picking the waitstaff (usually white people, who get high tips) and baristas makes your argument better; though I'm sure most baristas will disagree with you. Making coffee in a rather social setting is a rather nice job where you interact with customers, and can be fun (I've done it). What about the janitors, who usually work at night, alone, cleaning our toilets (I've done that too)? It is very alienating. If you did that for a year, the stuff Marx wrote about stops being some intellectual hocus pocus and actually starts to ring very very true. What about the farm workers that pick your strawberries and blueberries for that $14 plate of pancakes? Again I could go on and on.

c22 7y ago
Having spoken with some homeless people I think many of the people working in the back of the restaurant actually do "live" quite nearby.

malandrew 7y ago

Not all inequity is social and legal. A lot of inequity arises from inequity of output. An engineer for La Marzocco can make improvements to an expresso machine that improves the productivity/quality output of every barista using a La Marzocco machine such that they can pour a better latte and get more tips. Since there are hundreds of thousands of baristas that benefit from the changes of that engineer (or team of engineers), it is reasonable for there to be extreme inequity between baristas and the engineer that improved the productivity of many many baristas. I honestly don't see why people are so uncomfortable with inequity. A worthwhile thought experiment is to imagine a world with perfect equity across everyone in society. Once you consider the consequences of perfect equity, especially second and third order effects, it gets pretty dystopian pretty fast. For example, most of those with the most talent to offer to improve the lives of everyone else cease to pursue vocations where they provide the most value to the world. Instead they pursue vocations they enjoy or find easy if they pursue a vocation at all. If there is perfect equity, why work. The pace of improvements in quality of life across all society would slow to a crawl, if not stop or possibly even reverse. Seeing as all humans, regardless of where you are in society today, are all basically on a hedonic treadmill and are most content when they see improvements in their circumstances over the course of their life, perfect equity would be a disaster. The only exception to this would be maybe someone who has reached a Daoist/Buddhist level of contentment in all aspects of how they experience and interact with the world. To be clear, I'm not arguing that extreme inequity is good either. Instead what I'm saying is that inequity can be benign or even beneficial and that the ideal outcome for the most people is achieved when the power law distribution of inequity isn't extreme. e.g. a distribution of -10/x is preferable to a distribution of -1/(10x). The more smoothly sloped the power law distribution of inequity (less extreme tails), the more room there is for individuals to experience gradual improvements in one's circumstances and the more clearly does a individual experience a positive relationship between effort and reward. Experiencing an improvement in one's condition and have stewardship over that improvement both contribute to being content wherever you are on that distribution.