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I believe that there are some factors that I do not have control over that restrict me from moving up. The things I was born with, inheritance, social status, r

by sosuke 16y ago

I believe that there are some factors that I do not have control over that restrict me from moving up. The things I was born with, inheritance, social status, race and the things I can't directly control such as luck or the discrimination of myself by others are just challenges to overcome or circumvent so that I might merit the success I seek through hard work and perseverance. Whether the article is right or wrong I will not accept that I cannot get ahead through my "individual merit, which is generally viewed as a combination of factors including innate abilities, working hard, having the right attitude, and having high moral character and integrity" which are all things that I can and do control.

gnosis 16y ago
"'a cobination of innate abilities, working hard, having the right attitude, and having high moral character and integrity' which are all things that I can and do control." Do you really control those? Let's take them one at a time: - innate abilities - Do you control your innate abilities? The whole point of them being innate is that you're born with them. Do you control what abilities you're born with? If so, I'd sure like to learn that trick. - right attitude - If you're depressed that could put a damper on your attitude. And no, seriously depressed people can't just "snap out of it". And it's not their fault they're depressed. Much the same could be said about various other emotional and psychological issues that could hamper having a "right attitude". And this doesn't even get in to the question what the "right attitude" is, or in to the phenomena of "learned helplessness". - having high moral character and integrity - Much of this is due to the environment you grew up in, and your family and friends. Not much you can do about any of those except your friends. And to spurn anyone who wants to be friends with you usually takes a whole lot more consciousness and "character" than most kids have. And if they do have it, it's likely due, again, to the influence of their environment, friends, and family. Finally, there are other, more philosophical issues such as whether anyone has free will at all. If we don't have free will, then (by definition) we have no control over what we do.
- sosuke 16y ago
  You're right that you can't change the abilities you are born with but if you do use the skills that come easy to you then you can learn new abilities or work around your inabilities with those you had from birth. I've been depressed and suicidal and if you believe that genetics contribute to it then it runs in the family since my father and brother also suffered from it. One of the most wonderful things about depression though for me was with the help of medication I was able to overcome it. Depression is just one medical issue that can effect your "right attitude" but with the right assistance you can work through those problems. You have control over your attitude. (Up to a point, there are cases where the brain as magnificent as it is will not function normally and can result in a permanent inability to have the "right attitude") I don't believe that we are a sole product of our environment, we aren't what society made us. I haven't always had "high moral character and integrity" but I've change how I think over time about my life. You can change how you think, I believe we aren't set in stone completely. Ah and then free will comes into play. I believe we have free will and thus we have complete control and responsibility for what we do.
geezer 16y ago
The poverty rate in the U.S is about 17%. By your logic, those 17% are not getting ahead because they do not have innate abilities, they dont work hard, have the wrong attitude or dont have moral character and integrity. Don't you think that is a rather sweeping assertion!
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  By your logic, those 17% are not getting ahead because they do not have innate abilities, they dont work hard, have the wrong attitude or dont have moral character and integrity. The explanation that the poor "don't work hard" seems spot on. About 80% of the poor don't work at all, and 90% or so don't work very hard (full time). http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2008.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2008.pdf Furthermore, the claim that the poor have the "wrong attitude[1]" is also fairly well supported. Here is a recent paper, getting quite a bit of play, which argues that the poor have a higher time-discount rate than the rich. (There is a lot of work concurring with it, see the citations for example.) http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/2010/RAND_WR759.pdf http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/2010/RAND_WR759.pdf [1] I'm interpreting "wrong attitude" to mean "an attitude which leads to poverty", and am not making any value judgements.
  - geezer 16y ago
    Its important to differentiate the cause from the effect though. Attitudes leading to poverty, lack of hard work and various other related factors can very well be the effect of poverty. There are plenty of studies supporting that premise. Here is a relevant story: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10213/1076801-115.stm http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10213/1076801-115.stm
klochner 16y ago
That is a great attitude, but it's pretty orthogonal to any social policy issues addressed by the article.
- sosuke 16y ago
  After I finished and reread my comment I thought the same, my feelings didn't dispute the article. I decided to comment anyway because of just how strongly I felt on the subject. And thank you.

by sosuke 16y ago

gnosis 16y ago

"'a cobination of innate abilities, working hard, having the right attitude, and having high moral character and integrity' which are all things that I can and do control." Do you really control those? Let's take them one at a time: - innate abilities - Do you control your innate abilities? The whole point of them being innate is that you're born with them. Do you control what abilities you're born with? If so, I'd sure like to learn that trick. - right attitude - If you're depressed that could put a damper on your attitude. And no, seriously depressed people can't just "snap out of it". And it's not their fault they're depressed. Much the same could be said about various other emotional and psychological issues that could hamper having a "right attitude". And this doesn't even get in to the question what the "right attitude" is, or in to the phenomena of "learned helplessness". - having high moral character and integrity - Much of this is due to the environment you grew up in, and your family and friends. Not much you can do about any of those except your friends. And to spurn anyone who wants to be friends with you usually takes a whole lot more consciousness and "character" than most kids have. And if they do have it, it's likely due, again, to the influence of their environment, friends, and family. Finally, there are other, more philosophical issues such as whether anyone has free will at all. If we don't have free will, then (by definition) we have no control over what we do.

sosuke 16y ago
You're right that you can't change the abilities you are born with but if you do use the skills that come easy to you then you can learn new abilities or work around your inabilities with those you had from birth. I've been depressed and suicidal and if you believe that genetics contribute to it then it runs in the family since my father and brother also suffered from it. One of the most wonderful things about depression though for me was with the help of medication I was able to overcome it. Depression is just one medical issue that can effect your "right attitude" but with the right assistance you can work through those problems. You have control over your attitude. (Up to a point, there are cases where the brain as magnificent as it is will not function normally and can result in a permanent inability to have the "right attitude") I don't believe that we are a sole product of our environment, we aren't what society made us. I haven't always had "high moral character and integrity" but I've change how I think over time about my life. You can change how you think, I believe we aren't set in stone completely. Ah and then free will comes into play. I believe we have free will and thus we have complete control and responsibility for what we do.

geezer 16y ago

The poverty rate in the U.S is about 17%. By your logic, those 17% are not getting ahead because they do not have innate abilities, they dont work hard, have the wrong attitude or dont have moral character and integrity. Don't you think that is a rather sweeping assertion!

yummyfajitas 16y ago
By your logic, those 17% are not getting ahead because they do not have innate abilities, they dont work hard, have the wrong attitude or dont have moral character and integrity. The explanation that the poor "don't work hard" seems spot on. About 80% of the poor don't work at all, and 90% or so don't work very hard (full time). http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2008.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2008.pdf Furthermore, the claim that the poor have the "wrong attitude[1]" is also fairly well supported. Here is a recent paper, getting quite a bit of play, which argues that the poor have a higher time-discount rate than the rich. (There is a lot of work concurring with it, see the citations for example.) http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/2010/RAND_WR759.pdf http://www.rand.org/pubs/working_papers/2010/RAND_WR759.pdf [1] I'm interpreting "wrong attitude" to mean "an attitude which leads to poverty", and am not making any value judgements.
- geezer 16y ago
  Its important to differentiate the cause from the effect though. Attitudes leading to poverty, lack of hard work and various other related factors can very well be the effect of poverty. There are plenty of studies supporting that premise. Here is a relevant story: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10213/1076801-115.stm http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10213/1076801-115.stm

klochner 16y ago

That is a great attitude, but it's pretty orthogonal to any social policy issues addressed by the article.

sosuke 16y ago
After I finished and reread my comment I thought the same, my feelings didn't dispute the article. I decided to comment anyway because of just how strongly I felt on the subject. And thank you.