16 ms·

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are working really h

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are working really hard to make other people rich. Being really good at that game (and it's a pretty bitter game) isn't something to be envious of. I have never seen a high paying job in tech that wasn't ALSO higher stress and generally more hours. I'm sure exceptions exist, but as I've gotten to my mid thirties I've noticed that those in my friend group who make the most are also the most stressed. One of them is very, very good at CS. He works for a FAANG and makes an excellent salary. And he's fucking depressed as hell. But he has exactly the life I thought I wanted ten years ago. I'm an OK programmer who has no commute, lives in the middle of nowhere crazy cheap, and has almost no overhead. I work 8 hours a day. If I get paged on the weekend (hey, it happens) I work commensurately fewer hours during the week. I see my kid more than most dads I know. He's said (in not so many words) he envies what I have. There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker than you.

allthecybers 7y ago
Well stated. If I could upvote this comment x10 I would. There are always a trade-offs.
c22 7y ago
This is a solid observation. I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free. As a result of this decision I make a lot less money than many of my peers, but I'm always working on projects I'm excited about and I have more free time than most of the people I know. If anything, like you, I feel sorry for the people I see working all the time, always stressed, alienated from their families, and often using unhealthy habits to cope. You can buy a lot of stuff with money, but you can't take it with you when you die. I prefer to optimize for moments of contentment.
- andreilys 7y ago
  Money buys freedom from wage slavery.
  - c22 7y ago
    At a certain point, sure, but statistically you're unlikely to get there through wage slavery. Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom.
    - balfirevic 7y ago
      > Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom. What ways do you have in mind?
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    There was a cool article I saw quite a while ago where a father of 2 and sole provider for his family found that it was next to impossible to survive comfortably in London on half a million GBP per year. He went through all the numbers and showed how it just couldn't be done. Of course he was making 10x what would be considered a good wage in London. It wasn't his salary, it was his minimum standard that was out of whack. The best part of the article was that it wasn't dead pan humour -- he was just clueless. There is a certain minimum amount of money you need to be comfortable. How much money that is depends a lot on where you live, but it also depends a lot on your values. There isn't one point where you can choose to be free -- there are several and some of them are surprisingly low, monetarily. Most people choose not to be free. It's very interesting.
    - alltakendamned 7y ago
      If you can find back the link, I'd like to read this
      - mikekchar 7y ago
        Looking for it. BTW... I am never going back to Huffington Post. Wow... the "privacy controls" are sooooo broken.... Sorry. Can't find it. It was really interesting, though. I found a similar article here: $500K and scraping by - https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-year-high-income-earners-struggling/ https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-yea... It's interesting how they justify $23K a year for food for a family of 4. But the thing is, I know lots of people who spend that kind of money on food and can't imagine being able to spend less.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  > I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free Unfortunately, for me and for a lot of people, I don't think there is an intersection of things I would be willing to do for free and that can make decent money (or livable money, for that matter). > You can buy a lot of stuff with money, but you can't take it with you when you die. Well, you can't take anything with you when you die :)
  - kazinator 7y ago
    What? I thought there was an exception: that you can take the sources for your compiler with you; just not things like money and cars. Shit!
- badpun 7y ago
  Can you give a few examples of things that companies pay you to do that you would still do if unpaid?
  - c22 7y ago
    Sure. Right now I manage a hacker space for way less than the "market rate" for my responsibilities. I am also working as a freelancer on a handful of software projects. Currently all of my employers are non-profits so the pay is lower than in the profit-focused sphere, but the projects are ones I support ideologically and the problems I am solving are interesting to me. In the past I've done work as a handyman and I made a point of not accepting jobs that I felt would stress me out or involve a lot of tedium.
cneurotic 7y ago
Really resonated with me. "Seeing the kid more often" is the hardest hitting observation. "Its just a fucking job" indeed!
AndrewKemendo 7y ago
My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. The stock answer is contentment and "happiness." The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan, Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted to do was bring beautiful flowers to people and give them a smile. He had a point in life. Sure he had kids, but he knew that they would move on one day and do their own thing, and he wanted to be known as the best flower man in Belize so he got up early to start and worked late. This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you.
- chipz 7y ago
  Solid point, Not OP, but I also want to point out that OP seems to enjoy his working term (no commute and all), but enjoying the work doesn't have to make an impact on you. It's just a fucking job, yes, we make other people rich, yes, but it's also the kind of job that I wanna do. I also don't commute, and also have more time to meet with my daughter compared to most dads, and I really glad about this term.
- richk449 7y ago
  > My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? > I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. ... > This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you. Why can't "raising a family" be the totally compelling thing you do that has impact on you? The "point of your life"? I'm not saying that is me, but I think the people that choose that are making a perfectly rational choice.
  - AndrewKemendo 7y ago
    I mean it's so vague that it doesn't make sense. What is a measurable outcome from "raise a family?" Does that just mean producing offspring or are you requiring a certain outcome for the children and the unit as a whole, in order to feel content? These are independent autonomous humans who have their own goals - so what happens when they deviate from the things you wanted them to do? I have three kids and I can tell you right now, there is nothing straightforward that you can plan out with respect to outcomes. It's gonna be a crapshoot, and the best you can do is just do your best and hang on.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Gibbon1 7y ago
To the wayback machine. The year, sometime in the mid 1980's. Strangely while Facebook, Amazon, Netflix Google haven't been invented, Apple is here. Also strangely me too, but with long dark brown hair instead grey. Like today Apple and a bunch of other high status companies are highly sought after employers of note. And just like today overwork and burnout their highly skilled workers and then toss them out like yesterdays trash. Work for Apple, Microsoft, IBM and Intel they said. Make a name for yourself. Work on stuff other people think is exciting they said. Nope I said. And I've been happy enough over the last 35 years doing stuff no one else really cares about for companies and clients no one's ever heard of. End of the day, No Name Corps money is just as good as Googles and Apples. Sure there is less of it. But the difference you paying for with lack of control and stress. Edit: There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker than you. If there is one thing growing up in the bay area has taught me it's this.
- philpem 7y ago
  Amen to that. Took a job on the basis of "it'll look great on your CV". Most stressful job I've ever endured. Went back to working for less-well-known, smaller places... night and day difference. And I'm nowhere near the Bay area ;)
totaldude87 7y ago
>> There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker than you. THIS! made my day!
opportune 7y ago
I've worked at FAANGs and places like FAANGs... I don't really understand why so many people seem to think that working for FAANG must necessarily mean no life outside of work, or bad work-life balance. Maybe that is true at Amazon, or Apple, or something but I personally have not had a hard time working 40hr/weeks (90% of the time) while getting good reviews

allthecybers 7y ago

Well stated. If I could upvote this comment x10 I would. There are always a trade-offs.

c22 7y ago

This is a solid observation. I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free. As a result of this decision I make a lot less money than many of my peers, but I'm always working on projects I'm excited about and I have more free time than most of the people I know. If anything, like you, I feel sorry for the people I see working all the time, always stressed, alienated from their families, and often using unhealthy habits to cope. You can buy a lot of stuff with money, but you can't take it with you when you die. I prefer to optimize for moments of contentment.

andreilys 7y ago
Money buys freedom from wage slavery.
- c22 7y ago
  At a certain point, sure, but statistically you're unlikely to get there through wage slavery. Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    > Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom. What ways do you have in mind?
- mikekchar 7y ago
  There was a cool article I saw quite a while ago where a father of 2 and sole provider for his family found that it was next to impossible to survive comfortably in London on half a million GBP per year. He went through all the numbers and showed how it just couldn't be done. Of course he was making 10x what would be considered a good wage in London. It wasn't his salary, it was his minimum standard that was out of whack. The best part of the article was that it wasn't dead pan humour -- he was just clueless. There is a certain minimum amount of money you need to be comfortable. How much money that is depends a lot on where you live, but it also depends a lot on your values. There isn't one point where you can choose to be free -- there are several and some of them are surprisingly low, monetarily. Most people choose not to be free. It's very interesting.
  - alltakendamned 7y ago
    If you can find back the link, I'd like to read this
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      Looking for it. BTW... I am never going back to Huffington Post. Wow... the "privacy controls" are sooooo broken.... Sorry. Can't find it. It was really interesting, though. I found a similar article here: $500K and scraping by - https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-year-high-income-earners-struggling/ https://www.financialsamurai.com/scraping-by-on-500000-a-yea... It's interesting how they justify $23K a year for food for a family of 4. But the thing is, I know lots of people who spend that kind of money on food and can't imagine being able to spend less.
balfirevic 7y ago
> I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free Unfortunately, for me and for a lot of people, I don't think there is an intersection of things I would be willing to do for free and that can make decent money (or livable money, for that matter). > You can buy a lot of stuff with money, but you can't take it with you when you die. Well, you can't take anything with you when you die :)
- kazinator 7y ago
  What? I thought there was an exception: that you can take the sources for your compiler with you; just not things like money and cars. Shit!
badpun 7y ago
Can you give a few examples of things that companies pay you to do that you would still do if unpaid?
- c22 7y ago
  Sure. Right now I manage a hacker space for way less than the "market rate" for my responsibilities. I am also working as a freelancer on a handful of software projects. Currently all of my employers are non-profits so the pay is lower than in the profit-focused sphere, but the projects are ones I support ideologically and the problems I am solving are interesting to me. In the past I've done work as a handyman and I made a point of not accepting jobs that I felt would stress me out or involve a lot of tedium.

cneurotic 7y ago

Really resonated with me. "Seeing the kid more often" is the hardest hitting observation. "Its just a fucking job" indeed!

AndrewKemendo 7y ago

My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. The stock answer is contentment and "happiness." The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan, Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted to do was bring beautiful flowers to people and give them a smile. He had a point in life. Sure he had kids, but he knew that they would move on one day and do their own thing, and he wanted to be known as the best flower man in Belize so he got up early to start and worked late. This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you.

chipz 7y ago
Solid point, Not OP, but I also want to point out that OP seems to enjoy his working term (no commute and all), but enjoying the work doesn't have to make an impact on you. It's just a fucking job, yes, we make other people rich, yes, but it's also the kind of job that I wanna do. I also don't commute, and also have more time to meet with my daughter compared to most dads, and I really glad about this term.
richk449 7y ago
> My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? > I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. ... > This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you. Why can't "raising a family" be the totally compelling thing you do that has impact on you? The "point of your life"? I'm not saying that is me, but I think the people that choose that are making a perfectly rational choice.
- AndrewKemendo 7y ago
  I mean it's so vague that it doesn't make sense. What is a measurable outcome from "raise a family?" Does that just mean producing offspring or are you requiring a certain outcome for the children and the unit as a whole, in order to feel content? These are independent autonomous humans who have their own goals - so what happens when they deviate from the things you wanted them to do? I have three kids and I can tell you right now, there is nothing straightforward that you can plan out with respect to outcomes. It's gonna be a crapshoot, and the best you can do is just do your best and hang on.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Gibbon1 7y ago

To the wayback machine. The year, sometime in the mid 1980's. Strangely while Facebook, Amazon, Netflix Google haven't been invented, Apple is here. Also strangely me too, but with long dark brown hair instead grey. Like today Apple and a bunch of other high status companies are highly sought after employers of note. And just like today overwork and burnout their highly skilled workers and then toss them out like yesterdays trash. Work for Apple, Microsoft, IBM and Intel they said. Make a name for yourself. Work on stuff other people think is exciting they said. Nope I said. And I've been happy enough over the last 35 years doing stuff no one else really cares about for companies and clients no one's ever heard of. End of the day, No Name Corps money is just as good as Googles and Apples. Sure there is less of it. But the difference you paying for with lack of control and stress. Edit: There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker than you. If there is one thing growing up in the bay area has taught me it's this.

philpem 7y ago
Amen to that. Took a job on the basis of "it'll look great on your CV". Most stressful job I've ever endured. Went back to working for less-well-known, smaller places... night and day difference. And I'm nowhere near the Bay area ;)

totaldude87 7y ago

>> There's always someone faster, slower, richer, poorer, healthier, and sicker than you. THIS! made my day!

opportune 7y ago

I've worked at FAANGs and places like FAANGs... I don't really understand why so many people seem to think that working for FAANG must necessarily mean no life outside of work, or bad work-life balance. Maybe that is true at Amazon, or Apple, or something but I personally have not had a hard time working 40hr/weeks (90% of the time) while getting good reviews