7 ms·

Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? I believe it’s mainly attributable to the capitalist hierarchy we live in. Those in and aroun

Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? I believe it’s mainly attributable to the capitalist hierarchy we live in. Those in and around the ownership of companies make the most money. In large part because of the leverage that the labor/employees provide. As the world has opened up with free trade, businesses have scaled and this has increased further with the internet and computers. Those selling services to business owners i.e. M&A bankers (glorified real estate agents for businesses), M&A bankers and CEOs have all become richer and better compensated as business owners have gotten richer. It’s all about power, position and where you sit in the hierarchy that dictates how much you get paid and not necessarily the value you bring to the table. Having said all of this, I’m still a capitalist and I’m trying to play the game...ex-software developer turned investment professional...

neffy 7y ago
I find it fascinating you got voted down on what it essentially a pretty accurate description of how the system works.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  I don't think it's his description that got him downvoted. Rather it is his statement in the end where he "sold out" and became complicit in a system that a lot of people hate.
  - Noumenon72 7y ago
    Either reason for downvoting is illegitimate. This comment is sincere, interesting, and deserves to be readable by others.
  - Blackstone4 7y ago
    I sold out because as a software engineer I was making GBP 23.5k a year plus over time. I had a great review and was the “star performer” on my project. They were hiring people with my skill set for 28k so I asked multiple times for a pay rise and got turned down. I lived in the London area and housing is expensive. Around here financial services pay more and I wanted to be able to buy a house. I left for job that paying 57% more for less hours.
- dang 7y ago
  Please follow the site guidelines when posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
The CEO's job is primarily to raise money, keep investors happy, promote the brand, and set strategic goals. There is almost no overlap between this skillset and the developer skillset. It's partly about talent - in varying proportions - and partly about hierarchy. You have to be able to talk to other people high up in the hierarchy as an equal, and you need to display the correct social and personal signals to do that effectively.
mgfist 7y ago
> Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? Because of scope of impact. The scope of impact of a CEO is the entirety of a company. A bad CEO can destroy a company, a good CEO can make the company financially successful and desirable to work at. A regular engineer, or even a lead/staff engineer is mostly scoped to their own product, and have little ability to impact the future of the greater company. Why do military generals get credit when it's their soldiers who actually participate in combat and risk their lives? Because the decisions of a general have a much higher scope of impact. You could argue that being the soldier (or engineer) is harder than being the general (or ceo), but that doesn't change the fact that having the best engineer won't save a struggling company, while a good CEO can. So, companies (wisely) pay a pretty penny to have a good CEO, because it's worth it.
- eloff 7y ago
  Yes, precisely. Now if you have a really brilliant engineer who could found a 100 million plus company, but they're working for you by some twist of fate instead - if you treat them like a code monkey they're going to hate it, and you're wasting their potential. This is what e.g. Google does. On the other hand if you empower them and get the fuck out the way, they may well surprise you.
  - mgfist 7y ago
    > but they're working for you by some twist of fate instead - if you treat them like a code monkey they're going to hate it, and you're wasting their potential. Well no one is forced to work anywhere, especially if they don't like it. Fact of the matter is that there is more support for entrepreneurs today than ever before, especially in tech. Electric scooters are getting $100 million funding rounds. There is more than enough support for this brilliant engineer to create his successful company.

neffy 7y ago

I find it fascinating you got voted down on what it essentially a pretty accurate description of how the system works.

arvinsim 7y ago
I don't think it's his description that got him downvoted. Rather it is his statement in the end where he "sold out" and became complicit in a system that a lot of people hate.
- Noumenon72 7y ago
  Either reason for downvoting is illegitimate. This comment is sincere, interesting, and deserves to be readable by others.
- Blackstone4 7y ago
  I sold out because as a software engineer I was making GBP 23.5k a year plus over time. I had a great review and was the “star performer” on my project. They were hiring people with my skill set for 28k so I asked multiple times for a pay rise and got turned down. I lived in the London area and housing is expensive. Around here financial services pay more and I wanted to be able to buy a house. I left for job that paying 57% more for less hours.
dang 7y ago
Please follow the site guidelines when posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

The CEO's job is primarily to raise money, keep investors happy, promote the brand, and set strategic goals. There is almost no overlap between this skillset and the developer skillset. It's partly about talent - in varying proportions - and partly about hierarchy. You have to be able to talk to other people high up in the hierarchy as an equal, and you need to display the correct social and personal signals to do that effectively.

mgfist 7y ago

> Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? Because of scope of impact. The scope of impact of a CEO is the entirety of a company. A bad CEO can destroy a company, a good CEO can make the company financially successful and desirable to work at. A regular engineer, or even a lead/staff engineer is mostly scoped to their own product, and have little ability to impact the future of the greater company. Why do military generals get credit when it's their soldiers who actually participate in combat and risk their lives? Because the decisions of a general have a much higher scope of impact. You could argue that being the soldier (or engineer) is harder than being the general (or ceo), but that doesn't change the fact that having the best engineer won't save a struggling company, while a good CEO can. So, companies (wisely) pay a pretty penny to have a good CEO, because it's worth it.

eloff 7y ago
Yes, precisely. Now if you have a really brilliant engineer who could found a 100 million plus company, but they're working for you by some twist of fate instead - if you treat them like a code monkey they're going to hate it, and you're wasting their potential. This is what e.g. Google does. On the other hand if you empower them and get the fuck out the way, they may well surprise you.
- mgfist 7y ago
  > but they're working for you by some twist of fate instead - if you treat them like a code monkey they're going to hate it, and you're wasting their potential. Well no one is forced to work anywhere, especially if they don't like it. Fact of the matter is that there is more support for entrepreneurs today than ever before, especially in tech. Electric scooters are getting $100 million funding rounds. There is more than enough support for this brilliant engineer to create his successful company.