5 ms·

I came here to say this. Because programming is a very high leverage activity, what matters much more than coding speed is the quality of judgement. And that ca

by eloff 7y ago

I came here to say this. Because programming is a very high leverage activity, what matters much more than coding speed is the quality of judgement. And that can vary much more than 10x. And the funny thing is the market largely ignores this for programmers, but recognizes it for CEOs. Why are there no rockstar developers pulling in ten million a year? They do exist, but exclusively because they founded a company. I think this doesn't exist in programming because programmers aren't given the freedom to exercise that judgement. Instead they're largely treated like replaceable cogs executing on the vision of other people.

perl4ever 7y ago
I think it's because programmers generally operate within a framework that guides and controls them and that becomes the limiting factor. It's like having a car that goes 10 times as fast as others but you're driving in the city, so all the traffic gets synchronized at the traffic lights.
- mockingbirdy 7y ago
  Those two comments perfectly describe the issue IMO. That also means that activating good developers to be 10x people means they need to be given leverage and freedom to automate, innovate and be creative. And maybe also ownership of the product they create - e.g. shares or simply a special kind of recognition. I also see the problem with 10x developers - they are by definition irreplaceable which is impossible to manage properly. But for startups which have a small head-count, this may be needed.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    We don't observe people removing all barriers for special programmers and letting them do whatever they want, which might be evidence it doesn't work. Could it be because a complex system or project tends to be limited by its slowest/least productive necessary component?
    - mockingbirdy 7y ago
      I think the leadership component is very relevant here. A project manager / leader needs to be able to a) identify developers who could be 10x developers, b) develop their characters (some developers may be lazy or undisciplined or have anxieties that hold them back, so this needs to be solved first), c) recognize good technical skills and realistic self-evaluation (a developer that always wants a rewrite because he's certain that he will do it better than everyone before him vs. someone who tries to find a more reasonable way that may involve a rewrite). Overall, this is a very difficult task. If you let developers that have undeveloped characters manage themselves, they'll create a huge mess. And personal development is generally a very difficult task and not something that a leader can control for most parts.
    - repolfx 7y ago
      I'd say we do see that. It's the business model of Sand Hill Road - find talented 10x Devs and shower them with VC money. It seems to work often enough that there are many funds all searching for such people.
Blackstone4 7y ago
Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? I believe it’s mainly attributable to the capitalist hierarchy we live in. Those in and around the ownership of companies make the most money. In large part because of the leverage that the labor/employees provide. As the world has opened up with free trade, businesses have scaled and this has increased further with the internet and computers. Those selling services to business owners i.e. M&A bankers (glorified real estate agents for businesses), M&A bankers and CEOs have all become richer and better compensated as business owners have gotten richer. It’s all about power, position and where you sit in the hierarchy that dictates how much you get paid and not necessarily the value you bring to the table. Having said all of this, I’m still a capitalist and I’m trying to play the game...ex-software developer turned investment professional...
- neffy 7y ago
  I find it fascinating you got voted down on what it essentially a pretty accurate description of how the system works.
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    I don't think it's his description that got him downvoted. Rather it is his statement in the end where he "sold out" and became complicit in a system that a lot of people hate.
    - Noumenon72 7y ago
      Either reason for downvoting is illegitimate. This comment is sincere, interesting, and deserves to be readable by others.
    - Blackstone4 7y ago
      I sold out because as a software engineer I was making GBP 23.5k a year plus over time. I had a great review and was the “star performer” on my project. They were hiring people with my skill set for 28k so I asked multiple times for a pay rise and got turned down. I lived in the London area and housing is expensive. Around here financial services pay more and I wanted to be able to buy a house. I left for job that paying 57% more for less hours.
codingslave 7y ago
Why are there no rockstar developers pulling in ten million a year? I think there are, but they go by a different name - technical cofounder. There engineers at google and fb clearing one million a year though

by eloff 7y ago

perl4ever 7y ago

I think it's because programmers generally operate within a framework that guides and controls them and that becomes the limiting factor. It's like having a car that goes 10 times as fast as others but you're driving in the city, so all the traffic gets synchronized at the traffic lights.

mockingbirdy 7y ago
Those two comments perfectly describe the issue IMO. That also means that activating good developers to be 10x people means they need to be given leverage and freedom to automate, innovate and be creative. And maybe also ownership of the product they create - e.g. shares or simply a special kind of recognition. I also see the problem with 10x developers - they are by definition irreplaceable which is impossible to manage properly. But for startups which have a small head-count, this may be needed.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  We don't observe people removing all barriers for special programmers and letting them do whatever they want, which might be evidence it doesn't work. Could it be because a complex system or project tends to be limited by its slowest/least productive necessary component?
  - mockingbirdy 7y ago
    I think the leadership component is very relevant here. A project manager / leader needs to be able to a) identify developers who could be 10x developers, b) develop their characters (some developers may be lazy or undisciplined or have anxieties that hold them back, so this needs to be solved first), c) recognize good technical skills and realistic self-evaluation (a developer that always wants a rewrite because he's certain that he will do it better than everyone before him vs. someone who tries to find a more reasonable way that may involve a rewrite). Overall, this is a very difficult task. If you let developers that have undeveloped characters manage themselves, they'll create a huge mess. And personal development is generally a very difficult task and not something that a leader can control for most parts.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    I'd say we do see that. It's the business model of Sand Hill Road - find talented 10x Devs and shower them with VC money. It seems to work often enough that there are many funds all searching for such people.

Blackstone4 7y ago

Why are programmers not treated like CEOs in terms of pay levels? I believe it’s mainly attributable to the capitalist hierarchy we live in. Those in and around the ownership of companies make the most money. In large part because of the leverage that the labor/employees provide. As the world has opened up with free trade, businesses have scaled and this has increased further with the internet and computers. Those selling services to business owners i.e. M&A bankers (glorified real estate agents for businesses), M&A bankers and CEOs have all become richer and better compensated as business owners have gotten richer. It’s all about power, position and where you sit in the hierarchy that dictates how much you get paid and not necessarily the value you bring to the table. Having said all of this, I’m still a capitalist and I’m trying to play the game...ex-software developer turned investment professional...

neffy 7y ago
I find it fascinating you got voted down on what it essentially a pretty accurate description of how the system works.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  I don't think it's his description that got him downvoted. Rather it is his statement in the end where he "sold out" and became complicit in a system that a lot of people hate.
  - Noumenon72 7y ago
    Either reason for downvoting is illegitimate. This comment is sincere, interesting, and deserves to be readable by others.
  - Blackstone4 7y ago
    I sold out because as a software engineer I was making GBP 23.5k a year plus over time. I had a great review and was the “star performer” on my project. They were hiring people with my skill set for 28k so I asked multiple times for a pay rise and got turned down. I lived in the London area and housing is expensive. Around here financial services pay more and I wanted to be able to buy a house. I left for job that paying 57% more for less hours.

codingslave 7y ago

Why are there no rockstar developers pulling in ten million a year? I think there are, but they go by a different name - technical cofounder. There engineers at google and fb clearing one million a year though