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That's just as true for murder as it is for suicide, and in a world without guns both acts would have a far lower success rate. There are two logical mistakes

That's just as true for murder as it is for suicide, and in a world without guns both acts would have a far lower success rate. There are two logical mistakes in this reasoning: first, there's an implicit equation "prohibited guns"="no guns", and it's obviously not true, and explicit statement that less guns - less murders, and even less suicides, which is provably false. Right now, I live in a country where having just a knife in your pocket can land you in prison easily. Somehow, both murder, and suicide rates are still slightly above region's average. If you don't like my anonymous witnessing, you can arrange world countries by gun prohibition/severe restriction, then look at murder, and suicide rates - you'll find no correlation. Simple as that. And before tribal instinct pushes someone to downvote this, take into account: I'm not even a US citizen/resident, and have no stakes in your politics.

phil248 7y ago
The phrase "a world without guns" was a rhetorical shortcut to describe a nation where obtaining a firearm is significantly more difficult than in the United States. I was also not talking about rates of suicide or murder, but rather success rates based on the tool/method used.
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  rather success rates based on the tool/method used. This interpretation doesn't lead us anywhere too. The most popular method to commit suicide world-wide (hanging) has near 100% effectiveness.
  - phil248 7y ago
    Wow, no, it does not. You're just making things up?
    - brokenkebab 7y ago
      I think showing your knowledge would be better then this ad hominem.
      - phil248 7y ago
        It's pretty https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-... well http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-letha... documented https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120 https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245314 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245314 I'm not sure why you get to declare a lie as a fact without evidence, and I'm the one who has to provide links to call that out?
        brokenkebab 7y ago
        No one of these links (at least in abstracts/conclusions) makes distinction between real suicide, and parasuicide e.g. a suicide attempt having being stopped/saved, or infliction of non-deadly self-harm as the main goal. One can't make a parasuicide attempt sending a bullet to one's head (although some people imitate jamming, or expect gun to be taken from their hands - but such incidents rarely registered in statistics), so gun is naturally an unusual choice for a parasuicidal person which easily explains e.g. that 7% difference in the last link. People serious about ending their lives with hanging take precautions against possibility of being discovered at the moment of the action, and suffocation is deadly (need a link to prove this?) There are cases when hanged can recover after significant time, but they are notably rare. And people serious about ending their lives usually follow culturally "normal", or easiest ways to commit suicide [1]. Which brings us to the beginning of the discussion: removing a tool of suicide doesn't affect number of deaths which is proved by absence of correlation between availability of guns, and suicide rates. [1] Source: I was trained when volunteered in suicide prevention program.
StreamBright 7y ago
Yep. Also there are countries like Switzerland and Finland where the guns are present yet they are one of safest places on Earth. Interestingly Finland is #32 Switzerland is #61 and USA is #34 on the suicide rate list[1]. However gun ownership rates: USA #1, Finland #10, Switzerland #19 [2]. For me it just shows that there is no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

phil248 7y ago

The phrase "a world without guns" was a rhetorical shortcut to describe a nation where obtaining a firearm is significantly more difficult than in the United States. I was also not talking about rates of suicide or murder, but rather success rates based on the tool/method used.

brokenkebab 7y ago
rather success rates based on the tool/method used. This interpretation doesn't lead us anywhere too. The most popular method to commit suicide world-wide (hanging) has near 100% effectiveness.
- phil248 7y ago
  Wow, no, it does not. You're just making things up?
  - brokenkebab 7y ago
    I think showing your knowledge would be better then this ad hominem.
    - phil248 7y ago
      It's pretty https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-fatality/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/case-... well http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-letha... documented https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120 https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/2/120 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245314 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18245314 I'm not sure why you get to declare a lie as a fact without evidence, and I'm the one who has to provide links to call that out?
      - brokenkebab 7y ago
        No one of these links (at least in abstracts/conclusions) makes distinction between real suicide, and parasuicide e.g. a suicide attempt having being stopped/saved, or infliction of non-deadly self-harm as the main goal. One can't make a parasuicide attempt sending a bullet to one's head (although some people imitate jamming, or expect gun to be taken from their hands - but such incidents rarely registered in statistics), so gun is naturally an unusual choice for a parasuicidal person which easily explains e.g. that 7% difference in the last link. People serious about ending their lives with hanging take precautions against possibility of being discovered at the moment of the action, and suffocation is deadly (need a link to prove this?) There are cases when hanged can recover after significant time, but they are notably rare. And people serious about ending their lives usually follow culturally "normal", or easiest ways to commit suicide [1]. Which brings us to the beginning of the discussion: removing a tool of suicide doesn't affect number of deaths which is proved by absence of correlation between availability of guns, and suicide rates. [1] Source: I was trained when volunteered in suicide prevention program.

StreamBright 7y ago

Yep. Also there are countries like Switzerland and Finland where the guns are present yet they are one of safest places on Earth. Interestingly Finland is #32 Switzerland is #61 and USA is #34 on the suicide rate list[1]. However gun ownership rates: USA #1, Finland #10, Switzerland #19 [2]. For me it just shows that there is no correlation between gun ownership rates and suicide rates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate#List_by_the_World_Health_Organization_(2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...