4 ms·

There is a certain disconnect between "warning about antibiotic overuse" and ignoring that the same selection pressures are exerted by vaccine use.

by _red 7y ago

stallmanite 7y ago
Got any citations on that? I’ve never heard of pathogens evolving around vaccines.
- arkades 7y ago
  Because vaccination creates a series of various antibodies that are not identical from person to person, and often target highly invariant portions of a target microbe. The GP just conflated two wildly different things. A citation is not likely forthcoming.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    Thanks. My bullshitometer was going off but I’m not a biologist.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I have no idea, but I Googled "pathogens evolving around vaccines" and got a couple of interesting hits. Here is an article about how vaccines cause evolutionary pressure: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathog... And here is a paper about how they mostly don't: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6304978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6304978/ I feel like it's weird that people say something exists and then other people say no it doesn't without ever typing it in to Google. If you are that uninterested in the topic, why even post? Surely you can't reassure yourself about your knowledge that way.
  - stallmanite 7y ago
    I did google it. I wanted to know what this guy would say about it. Don’t be an asshole Edit: Thanks for digging up references though. And I do feel the same way about people asking questions when they’re too lazy to search. In this case I had reasons to do so.
zaphod4prez 7y ago
Sorry but that is just not true. Vaccine use applies the same selection pressures as [people existing and having immune systems]. The things you are comparing are totally different and not comparable.
- spraak 7y ago
  So, I'm risking sounding like a fringe anti-vaxxer here, but no, vaccine use does not apply the same selection pressure, because we know that vaccines wane, but generally speaking, acquired immunity is for a lifetime. Also, there are different types of vaccines - some target bacterial infections such as pertussis, while others target viruses. Here's an example of pertussis adapting to the vaccine use [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11485646 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11485646 > In the Netherlands, as in many other western countries, pertussis vaccines have been used extensively for more than 40 years. Therefore, it is conceivable that vaccine-induced immunity has affected the evolution of Bordetella pertussis. Consistent with this notion, pertussis has reemerged in the Netherlands, despite high vaccination coverage. Further, a notable change in the population structure of B. pertussis was observed in the Netherlands subsequent to the introduction of vaccination in the 1950s. Finally, we observed antigenic divergence between clinical isolates and vaccine strains, in particular with respect to the surface-associated proteins pertactin and pertussis toxin. Adaptation may have allowed B. pertussis to remain endemic despite widespread vaccination and may have contributed to the reemergence of pertussis in the Netherlands.
  - arkades 7y ago
    Because pertussis vaccine targets a specific, purified protein from the target microbe (that is, a fairly non-conserved element, that is fairly small and provides fewer targets for variation in Ab targets). Most vaccines don't do this, and none of the new vaccines under development do this (that I am aware of, admittedly.) It's historical inertia at this point. But going back at least as far as "since when I was a kid" it's a fundamental point of vaccine design that you aim for things that the microbe has a difficult time evolving away from (highly conserved molecules), and that offers multiple antigen targets. I can't say that's never deviated from - not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and what-have-you - but it's the norm.

There is a certain disconnect between "warning about antibiotic overuse" and ignoring that the same selection pressures are exerted by vaccine use.

by _red 7y ago

There is a certain disconnect between "warning about antibiotic overuse" and ignoring that the same selection pressures are exerted by vaccine use.

stallmanite 7y ago

Got any citations on that? I’ve never heard of pathogens evolving around vaccines.

arkades 7y ago
Because vaccination creates a series of various antibodies that are not identical from person to person, and often target highly invariant portions of a target microbe. The GP just conflated two wildly different things. A citation is not likely forthcoming.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  Thanks. My bullshitometer was going off but I’m not a biologist.
perl4ever 7y ago
I have no idea, but I Googled "pathogens evolving around vaccines" and got a couple of interesting hits. Here is an article about how vaccines cause evolutionary pressure: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathog... And here is a paper about how they mostly don't: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6304978/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6304978/ I feel like it's weird that people say something exists and then other people say no it doesn't without ever typing it in to Google. If you are that uninterested in the topic, why even post? Surely you can't reassure yourself about your knowledge that way.
- stallmanite 7y ago
  I did google it. I wanted to know what this guy would say about it. Don’t be an asshole Edit: Thanks for digging up references though. And I do feel the same way about people asking questions when they’re too lazy to search. In this case I had reasons to do so.

zaphod4prez 7y ago

Sorry but that is just not true. Vaccine use applies the same selection pressures as [people existing and having immune systems]. The things you are comparing are totally different and not comparable.

spraak 7y ago
So, I'm risking sounding like a fringe anti-vaxxer here, but no, vaccine use does not apply the same selection pressure, because we know that vaccines wane, but generally speaking, acquired immunity is for a lifetime. Also, there are different types of vaccines - some target bacterial infections such as pertussis, while others target viruses. Here's an example of pertussis adapting to the vaccine use [1] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11485646 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11485646 > In the Netherlands, as in many other western countries, pertussis vaccines have been used extensively for more than 40 years. Therefore, it is conceivable that vaccine-induced immunity has affected the evolution of Bordetella pertussis. Consistent with this notion, pertussis has reemerged in the Netherlands, despite high vaccination coverage. Further, a notable change in the population structure of B. pertussis was observed in the Netherlands subsequent to the introduction of vaccination in the 1950s. Finally, we observed antigenic divergence between clinical isolates and vaccine strains, in particular with respect to the surface-associated proteins pertactin and pertussis toxin. Adaptation may have allowed B. pertussis to remain endemic despite widespread vaccination and may have contributed to the reemergence of pertussis in the Netherlands.
- arkades 7y ago
  Because pertussis vaccine targets a specific, purified protein from the target microbe (that is, a fairly non-conserved element, that is fairly small and provides fewer targets for variation in Ab targets). Most vaccines don't do this, and none of the new vaccines under development do this (that I am aware of, admittedly.) It's historical inertia at this point. But going back at least as far as "since when I was a kid" it's a fundamental point of vaccine design that you aim for things that the microbe has a difficult time evolving away from (highly conserved molecules), and that offers multiple antigen targets. I can't say that's never deviated from - not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and what-have-you - but it's the norm.