5 ms·

After a certain level of cleanliness, the more effort someone puts into their appearance, the less respect I have for them. I have tried to look past this in so

After a certain level of cleanliness, the more effort someone puts into their appearance, the less respect I have for them. I have tried to look past this in some situations, but I cant help but think they're lying to me in some way.

raldi 7y ago
Basic Bayesian analysis.
psychometry 7y ago
You're free to hold such opinions. The rest of us thank you for making us look better in comparison.
kuzehanka 7y ago
Tech is a field where skill is self-evident and verifiable to a much greater extent than most traditional business. And while it's not a universal rule, I have found that people at the top of the top of their respective tech/nontech industries, tend to not put any effort into how they dress unless they have to impress a client etc. I've adopted a heuristic of looking for the worst dressed guy to identify the decision maker when meeting new client groups in my line of work. If the way one dresses, or the cost of one's watch, or the firmness of one's handshake is the best signal they have to communicate their stature to a group, it's because they don't have anything more tangible.
- criddell 7y ago
  > If the way one dresses, or the cost of one's watch, or the firmness of one's handshake is the best signal they have to communicate their stature to a group, it's because they don't have anything more tangible. What other ways are there to communicate stature to a group? For one-on-one interactions there are lots of ways, but when you walk into a room, appearance is about all you have.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Without getting into specifics which may be debatable, "trying too hard" always counters other means of communicating stature. I can't help thinking of the recent news articles about Patagonia reacting to the popularity of its fleece vests: https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-investors-love-fleece-vests-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-investors-lov... "I think one reason for the popularity is: Patagonia represents quality without being pretentious" ...so all the rich people wear the same thing in order to not look like rich people, but now it's a stereotype.
appleshore 7y ago
But everyone likes beauty and aesthetics. This SF-cultural idea that everything clothing related should be drab, minimalistic and unremarkable clashes with sleek iPhones, beautiful Teslas and refined UI/UXs.
jordanpg 7y ago
Fashion, expensive clothes, makeup, hairstyles: all of it feels like the last gasp of a historical precedent that is, ultimately, shallow and meaningless. In the same way that sports is meaningless. Mostly harmless, totally meaningless. My larger critique of appearance-minding is how manifestly classist it is: certain (expensive) clothes and appearances must be worn in certain places and social circles to identify your belonging. Lots of people are screened out by this filter alone. And time and money is wasted on appearance. It's also ironic that, among a certain set, whose profound knowledge and skills are so vast and impressive that they deserve massive compensation for their time (I'm looking over at the C-suite here), there is still plenty of time and energy available to focus on appearance: clothes, shoes, cars, hairstyles. All vapid things. Vaporware. Hmmm.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "all of it feels like the last gasp of a historical precedent that is, ultimately, shallow and meaningless" Are you really saying this is specific to the last 50-100 years?
  - jordanpg 7y ago
    More like 50-10000 years.
bane 7y ago
I have a hard time getting out of my head that those people could be putting more time into furthering their expertise rather than participating in a fashion show. I've had similar experiences with people who pursue very intense fitness activities. You can't train for a marathon while also putting in the long hours to be at the peak of your technical field for example. Sometimes, on a day off, I see people out in the road training for intense cycling or running activities and I can't help but think to myself "those people must be impossible to work with...why aren't they at work now?" Then I also temper myself to realize that work isn't all of a person's life, and I also spend a great deal of time in non-productive pursuits that aren't help to me at work. Working all the time at all costs isn't healthy. It reminds me to go out and take a walk, or a sculpture class or something.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- acdha 7y ago
  > while also putting in the long hours to be at the peak of your technical field I think this association is believed to be true more than the evidence supports, helped in no small part by companies which profit from employees donating unpaid overtime to the bottom line. You need to put some time in but diminishing returns set in pretty quickly, and creative work often significantly benefits from a balanced lifestyle.
  - bane 7y ago
    Personally, I've definitely noticed a large improvement in mood and burnout symptoms by reducing focus on work and moving focus to "useless" hobby pursuits (the further from my day-to-day work the better).
- erpellan 7y ago
  The same OCD tendencies that are conducive to technical expertise can also be aimed at other aspects of life. I go through occasional boughts of dressing smarter, just for the satisfaction. And the nice shoes. Life's too short for boring shoes.
- 7y ago
bitofhope 7y ago
I think most people who believe they don't care about fashion do. Cargo pants, t-shirts and hoodies might not be the typical image of fashion or putting effort in one's appearance, but me wearing them at work and free time is still a semi-conscious social marker. I don't think I put much more or less effort in my appearance than someone who's everyday attire includes button up shirts and designer eyewear, but we will signal different interests with the way we dress. They say to dress for the job you want. It could be that you don't actually base your respect on the effort someone puts in their appearance, but rather the kind of appearance you value.
- Psyonic 7y ago
  It's hard to put in less effort than swag t-shirts, jeans and flip-flops. I don't feel the same as OP, but to say that people are putting in the same effort seems off.
  - teucris 7y ago
    Choosing not to put in effort is still a choice. And a more significant one than people realize. At some point I imagine that those who wear swag t-shirts daily had to come to the realization that it was acceptable to do so. In many realms (mine included) there is explicit signaling in choosing not to put in the effort, to the point where I see people vying for decision-making positions by dressing down.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      Working at a place where nobody cared how you dressed, because nobody cared about anything, there was ironically a tendency for people to dress a little less casually (wear button down shirts, etc) after a certain point because it showed you did still care and weren't totally burned out. And nobody was a rock star, so there wasn't any point in dressing down to prove you were above other people.
beezle 7y ago
Early in life, imho much of fashion is just necessary for attracting a desirable mate, much like plummage on a bird. Excess can be excused. Once past that stage, fashion seems to fall into two categories - 1) the selfish need/desire to impress others of similar social class (or a class you wish to join) or 2) the genuine unselfish desire to look nice for your friends benefit in some social situation.

raldi 7y ago

Basic Bayesian analysis.

psychometry 7y ago

You're free to hold such opinions. The rest of us thank you for making us look better in comparison.

kuzehanka 7y ago

Tech is a field where skill is self-evident and verifiable to a much greater extent than most traditional business. And while it's not a universal rule, I have found that people at the top of the top of their respective tech/nontech industries, tend to not put any effort into how they dress unless they have to impress a client etc. I've adopted a heuristic of looking for the worst dressed guy to identify the decision maker when meeting new client groups in my line of work. If the way one dresses, or the cost of one's watch, or the firmness of one's handshake is the best signal they have to communicate their stature to a group, it's because they don't have anything more tangible.

criddell 7y ago
> If the way one dresses, or the cost of one's watch, or the firmness of one's handshake is the best signal they have to communicate their stature to a group, it's because they don't have anything more tangible. What other ways are there to communicate stature to a group? For one-on-one interactions there are lots of ways, but when you walk into a room, appearance is about all you have.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Without getting into specifics which may be debatable, "trying too hard" always counters other means of communicating stature. I can't help thinking of the recent news articles about Patagonia reacting to the popularity of its fleece vests: https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-investors-love-fleece-vests-2016-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-investors-lov... "I think one reason for the popularity is: Patagonia represents quality without being pretentious" ...so all the rich people wear the same thing in order to not look like rich people, but now it's a stereotype.

appleshore 7y ago

But everyone likes beauty and aesthetics. This SF-cultural idea that everything clothing related should be drab, minimalistic and unremarkable clashes with sleek iPhones, beautiful Teslas and refined UI/UXs.

jordanpg 7y ago

Fashion, expensive clothes, makeup, hairstyles: all of it feels like the last gasp of a historical precedent that is, ultimately, shallow and meaningless. In the same way that sports is meaningless. Mostly harmless, totally meaningless. My larger critique of appearance-minding is how manifestly classist it is: certain (expensive) clothes and appearances must be worn in certain places and social circles to identify your belonging. Lots of people are screened out by this filter alone. And time and money is wasted on appearance. It's also ironic that, among a certain set, whose profound knowledge and skills are so vast and impressive that they deserve massive compensation for their time (I'm looking over at the C-suite here), there is still plenty of time and energy available to focus on appearance: clothes, shoes, cars, hairstyles. All vapid things. Vaporware. Hmmm.

perl4ever 7y ago
"all of it feels like the last gasp of a historical precedent that is, ultimately, shallow and meaningless" Are you really saying this is specific to the last 50-100 years?
- jordanpg 7y ago
  More like 50-10000 years.

bane 7y ago

I have a hard time getting out of my head that those people could be putting more time into furthering their expertise rather than participating in a fashion show. I've had similar experiences with people who pursue very intense fitness activities. You can't train for a marathon while also putting in the long hours to be at the peak of your technical field for example. Sometimes, on a day off, I see people out in the road training for intense cycling or running activities and I can't help but think to myself "those people must be impossible to work with...why aren't they at work now?" Then I also temper myself to realize that work isn't all of a person's life, and I also spend a great deal of time in non-productive pursuits that aren't help to me at work. Working all the time at all costs isn't healthy. It reminds me to go out and take a walk, or a sculpture class or something.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
acdha 7y ago
> while also putting in the long hours to be at the peak of your technical field I think this association is believed to be true more than the evidence supports, helped in no small part by companies which profit from employees donating unpaid overtime to the bottom line. You need to put some time in but diminishing returns set in pretty quickly, and creative work often significantly benefits from a balanced lifestyle.
- bane 7y ago
  Personally, I've definitely noticed a large improvement in mood and burnout symptoms by reducing focus on work and moving focus to "useless" hobby pursuits (the further from my day-to-day work the better).
erpellan 7y ago
The same OCD tendencies that are conducive to technical expertise can also be aimed at other aspects of life. I go through occasional boughts of dressing smarter, just for the satisfaction. And the nice shoes. Life's too short for boring shoes.
7y ago

bitofhope 7y ago

I think most people who believe they don't care about fashion do. Cargo pants, t-shirts and hoodies might not be the typical image of fashion or putting effort in one's appearance, but me wearing them at work and free time is still a semi-conscious social marker. I don't think I put much more or less effort in my appearance than someone who's everyday attire includes button up shirts and designer eyewear, but we will signal different interests with the way we dress. They say to dress for the job you want. It could be that you don't actually base your respect on the effort someone puts in their appearance, but rather the kind of appearance you value.

Psyonic 7y ago
It's hard to put in less effort than swag t-shirts, jeans and flip-flops. I don't feel the same as OP, but to say that people are putting in the same effort seems off.
- teucris 7y ago
  Choosing not to put in effort is still a choice. And a more significant one than people realize. At some point I imagine that those who wear swag t-shirts daily had to come to the realization that it was acceptable to do so. In many realms (mine included) there is explicit signaling in choosing not to put in the effort, to the point where I see people vying for decision-making positions by dressing down.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Working at a place where nobody cared how you dressed, because nobody cared about anything, there was ironically a tendency for people to dress a little less casually (wear button down shirts, etc) after a certain point because it showed you did still care and weren't totally burned out. And nobody was a rock star, so there wasn't any point in dressing down to prove you were above other people.

beezle 7y ago

Early in life, imho much of fashion is just necessary for attracting a desirable mate, much like plummage on a bird. Excess can be excused. Once past that stage, fashion seems to fall into two categories - 1) the selfish need/desire to impress others of similar social class (or a class you wish to join) or 2) the genuine unselfish desire to look nice for your friends benefit in some social situation.