7 ms·

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boa

• doyoulikeworms 7y ago
  > Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle that sounds like an amazing product TBH-- does anything like that exist?
  • kajecounterhack 7y ago
    No touchpad but: https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io
    • isoprophlex 7y ago
      That looks incredible: build quality, ergonomics, there's even an Any key But the edge of maple body looks a bit high. Do you own one? How comfortable is it to rest your wrists on it? (I prefer the shallowest possible keyboards myself)
      • lincolnq 7y ago
        I have one of these too. I ended up not using it because I preferred my long-standing kinesis. It was quite comfortable though; my main complaint was with the switches -- I didn't like the Matias switches it ships with (I prefer Cherry Browns). I also felt that I wanted more thumb-keys, but that's obviously a preference I inherited from my longtime Kinesis usage :). If the design appeals to you I do still recommend it despite not preferring it myself. The build quality was great. I don't have any comments in particular about the height, not something I noticed.
      • LukeShu 7y ago
        I have one too. Because the body of the keyboard doesn't cut off where the keys end, and supports so much of your wrist, you don't notice that it's so thick, the "desk surface" is just that much higher.
  • rubenfonseca 7y ago
    What about this: https://www.keymouse.com/ https://www.keymouse.com/
  • maximilianroos 7y ago
    This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
• alpaca128 7y ago
  A lot of people build their own ergonomic split keyboards, there are even websites like keeb.io which focus purely on kits for such variants, and open source projects like the ergodox or dactyl keyboards that everyone can 3D print(or otherwise create) and handwire with their own choice of componentes and materials. Of course it's not the majority but a market exists and many of the kits are almost constantly sold out.
  • frostburg 7y ago
    I built a Nyquist from keeb.io parts (and zealios 67g switches). It was mostly to learn how to flash QMK to a microcontroller, solder the components etc., but I used it for a few weeks and it was surprisingly comfortable, better than my usual topre novatouch.
    • in_hindsight 7y ago
      How do you find 67g switches? I built quefrency with 67g Zilents and while they are comfortable I wonder if they are a bit too stiff for fingers joints health
      • frostburg 7y ago
        I like them, but I have a somewhat soft typing touch and don't bottom them out (they're harder to bottom out than most switches, too). I don't know if lighter switches (which are likely going to be easier to bottom out) might be better for joints.
• zerr 7y ago
  Kinesis looks good for data entry and such keyboard-only activities, but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable. Any experiences?
  • lincolnq 7y ago
    I have used a kinesis for 12+ years as my main keyboard. I'm not fully sure what you are asking -- I would guess you're referring to the fact that it's harder than usual to type with one hand and mouse with the other, because you have to reach across to the other side of the keyboard? If that's what you're asking, I agree -- but I consider it a good thing :). I found that the kinesis helped me focus on touch-typing more and relying more on keyboard shortcuts to navigate; it's a bit of a learning curve but ultimately worth it for ergonomics and speed.
  • coldtea 7y ago
    >but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable Parent did say "and slapping touchpads in the middle".
  • aasasd 7y ago
    In case of the browser, I've augmented it with the Vimium add-on. I've gotten so used to touch-typing that I'm annoyed when I have to reach for the mouse, even despite the inherent delay for reading Vimium's label on a link. That's why I want a touchpad in quick reach. And also for the two-finger scroll with its analog sensitivity. This keyboard-reliance has led me to another observation, that web devs don't test keyboard scroll on their sites.
• eyeball 7y ago
  https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ As soon as the trackpoint modules are complete this will be the dream for me.
  • nyolfen 7y ago
    very cool, and also the most 90s looking piece of electronics i've seen in a while
    • brodsky 7y ago
      true! I'm very tempted to finish mine with custom airbrushed patina á la "abandoned soviet cold war bunker" :)
      • eyeball 7y ago
        They sell different color cases. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4/ultimate_nuclear_hacking/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4...
        • brodsky 7y ago
          yes, i have the yellow one. it looks awesome, but i'm really longing for some post-apocalyptic touches (think Metro rather than Fallout). don't have an airbrush though, nor do I know how to use one. So this will have to wait...
  • nxpnsv 7y ago
    I have one. It’s sweet even without the modules, can always order them later. I consider it one of those few perfect purchases. Only issue in 1/2 year: I thought the cool coiled cable was too short so i bought a straight replacement cable for 5€.
    • brodsky 7y ago
      you can use any old phone cable by the way!
• tjoff 7y ago
  There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around. The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R... As for touchpads they kind of suck as an input device (imo), but it would be easy to incorporate an apple device in the above. But people seem to be experimenting more with large ball mouses such as the kensington trackball or something like the point-stick that thinkpads use, where you don't even have to lift your hands of home-row.
  • ghaff 7y ago
    I was a big trackball fan for many years (mostly Logitech models). Although I admit I switched away, in part because there was at least a period when I didn't like any of the models available, but also because Apple finally did a trackpad I actively liked rather than barely tolerated.
  • oposa 7y ago
    > But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprimanded if you use too much machine time. Why people dump things on github without documentation for their resume. And why the hacker news thread on the raspberry pi is about what people are using rather than what they have created. A keyboard is a very basic object. It is almost like the hello world of hardware. Despite this it is very challenging to produce and publish one [0][1], or something like one [2]. But these stories mostly fall of deaf ears as this important part of diy culture has become marginalized. [0] https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-startling-discovery https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-s... [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ [2] http://www.tlalexander.com/business/ http://www.tlalexander.com/business/
• TurboHaskal 7y ago
  It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mechanical keyboard community because they don’t feel tactile enough. Let alone the fact that they dare using rubber in the keyboards. Fortunately they seem to be busier building them from scratch and posting the results on Reddit than actually typing.
  • Klathmon 7y ago
    I absolutely haven't gotten that feeling from the mechanical keyboard community. They seem pretty accepting of anything, and are often more concerned with finding the right keyboard for what you want. There are jokes and memes that go around, but not many people have issues with any kinds of switches. Some people really prefer the tactile feel, and others really want the super high activation forces. It's a tradeoff, and there are more options now than ever. I have a split ortholinear keyboard with Kailh blue 50cN activation force "clicky" switches, a BDN9 macro pad with Cherry MX White (80cN "clicky" switches), a planck with cherry MX brown 55cN quiet "tactile" switches, and an aging das-keyboard 4 ultimate that I replaced the stock greetech switches with MOD L Linear switches with a 45cN activation weight. I have to say that I thought the lighter activation would be nice, but it was actually MORE stressful for my hands because even though I wouldn't normally accidentally activate the switch by resting my hands, if I moved too quickly or kind of let my fingers relax it would press down enough sometimes to type accidentally, leading to me kind of "hovering" my fingers above the keys all the time. I also missed the tactile feel that I was getting used to on other boards to avoid having to "bottom out" the keys for the most part. I'm not going to say it's worse for everyone, but for me I greatly prefer 50-70cN activation force for typing, and I really like the "heavy" feel of the cherry MX White switches for my macro pad. You may like the lighter force switches. In that case you may want to go for linear switches as they tend to have smaller activation weights. Take a look at the Kalih silver or copper switches, or the cherry MX speed silver if you can find them. They are about as light as mechanical switches come.
  • 7y ago
• melling 7y ago
  It’s disappointing that there’s so little innovation. Surely, we must have learned more about ergonomics in the past half century? The DataHand was a new interesting “keyboard” design in the 1990’s, about 25 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand Btw, Xahlee has a great article on keyboard switches: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html
  • DanBC 7y ago
    There's some innovation but there are also aggressive patent holders who are holding things back. For example, Matius was stopping one-handed keyboards for a while. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html There were things like the Frogpad or the HandyKey Twiddler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA
    • oposa 7y ago
      It is also, like many things in hardware, a software problem. The purpose of a keyboard is to interact with software. And that software is biased towards certain layouts. It is hard to change the layout too much without quickly becoming a niche product. Add to that the barrier to entry to making a hardware product is still quite high, and relatively costly.
  • absorber 7y ago
    I tried to see if I could make a keyboard with slightly larger keys for my upcoming live music performances and I was thoroughly disappointed: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/e61riay/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24...
• solatic 7y ago
  No touchpad, but: https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
• EL_Loco 7y ago
  The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out in front of you, hands 12 to 14 inches apart. I bet most of human fine movement tasks were done with the hands close together (sewing for example). The position with your hands extended and 12 inches apart actually puts your elbows in a quite uncomfortable position, and I wouldn't be surprised if that in itself would lead to some injuries in that area (elbow). As for the ortholinear key designs, that's not very ergonomic either. Make a fist with your hands. Now open your fingers. Do they open in a parallel line pattern like the orthogonal keyboards? No, they don't. They spread out, in a star-like pattern. If the keys were laid out similar to that pattern then, yes, I might concede a benefit there. But these two regular complaints about traditional keyboards while hailing split and orthogonal keybords as well thought out ergonomic solutions seem more like a fad to me. By the way, I don't think the traditional typewriter-like keyboards are great, far from it. I do think, though, that our hands are pretty resilient, but not infinitely resilient. Too much repetitive work, insufficient rest, personal biomechanics, can all eventually lead to injuries, on all these types of keyboards. PS-> Who came up with calling it 'ortholinear'?
  • UkiahSmith 7y ago
    I have a split keyboard, and I think the real benefit is not that I can rotate my wrists, but that it allows me to pull my shoulder blades closer together. I sit more upright and have less back pain.
    • ianhowson 7y ago
      This. I also enjoy being able to move the two halves around through the day, shifting the muscular load around. It makes it easy to accommodate different seating, standing and lying positions. (I never figured out, despite 'ergonomics training', how I was supposed to hold my extended hands and arms upright for hours per day without shoulder and neck pain.)
• tfolbrecht 7y ago
  Thank God our arms have joints in three places allowing us to position them arbitrarily. Once you type one handed or use a mouse your ergonomic keyboard is less comfortable than the traditional geometry.
• mietek 7y ago
  Check out this 3D-printed recreation of a DataHand. https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
• maximilianroos 7y ago
  This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
• nixpulvis 7y ago
  Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/ http://www.altkeyboards.com/ The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false. I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys feel. Switching even from my thinkpad to friends butterfly MacBooks makes typing significantly harder for me. As far as RSI is concerned, there was a time when I used to play WoW and I thought I might have a problem with this, but between small hand stretches and maybe just luck, I don't have these problems anymore. Maybe they'll come back as I continue to get older. Here's a random reddit thread where random people seem to think posture and technique avoids RSI. I'm tempted to agree. https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists_get_rsi/ https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists... And some good advice http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-piano-practice-related-hand-injuries-and-muscle-pain/ http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-p...
  • _ph_ 7y ago
    If you compare a piano with a standard keyboard, there are a lot of differences. The problem with the standard keyboard is, that for touch-typing, the hands need to be angled very unnaturally, as they have to be close together, yet lined up in an almost parallel position. The only way to achive that is to flex your wrists, and that is where a lot of stress originates from. A piano is very wide, and you often have you hands spaced very far from each other. This reduces a lot of stress. Also, you don't have your fingers basically tied to the same positions, but during the play, the wrists change position a lot, so there is no static pressure into a single unnatural position. The active movement should be beneficial to your wrists too. Finally, the keys are pretty large, giving more possible hand positions to hit them.
    • jacobolus 7y ago
      The piano keyboard is pretty poorly designed from a pure user interface standpoint; its design is mostly dictated by the direct mechanical connection to a big bunch of parallel strings. Tons of pianists get RSI, which can seriously impact their careers. It is important for serious musicians to figure out a piano technique which does not require putting too much static load on any of the joints. An improved piano keyboard could help quite a bit, but it’s pretty hard to change piano keyboard layouts, since there are several centuries of repertoire built up around the current one, and pianos are very large, expensive, and difficult to modify.
• jandeboevrie 7y ago
  Here's my take on five years of split keyboards: https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_review_including_the_ErgoDox_EZ_Matias_Ergo_Pro_and_Kinesis_Freestyle_2.html https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_re...
• Phrodo_00 7y ago
  Because not a lot of people prefer touchpads over mice. I'd very much prefer a compact keyboard + comfortable mouse to that setup (and given the keyboards a lot of people are building, I'm not alone)
• userbinator 7y ago
  Why do you think that the keyboard is the problem, and not the indoctrination of "this is the right way to type and posture" leading to further stress? In fact, in my admittedly small sample of others I know who do have problems with their wrists, they were all ones who tried very hard to rigidly conform to the "standard" posture and move only the fingers of the hands instead of the whole arm. They were also people who hit the keys much harder than necessary. I use a standard flat QWERTY keyboard and I can type for hours at 150+ WPM with no problem, but I've had comments from some of those people above that I'm not doing it right... when they're the ones who are getting pains in their wrists, not me... If you try to keep your hands parallel to the keyboard no matter what, you are going to stress your wrists. Let them approach at whatever angle feels comfortable, and relax. That also happens to be the "trick" to typing faster too --- if you expend effort on trying to be "strict" about posture rather than just hitting the keys in whatever you feel to be the most comfortable way, you'll tire quickly, type slower, and stress your joints more. This is good: https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo160400673/55226294-white-laptop-as-seen-from-above-with-hands-typing-on-keyboard-.jpg?ver=6 https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo... This is not: http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_position.jpg http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_... (My resting position is more like awef and jio;)
  • uncletaco 7y ago
    How old are you, if you don't mind sharing?
    • userbinator 7y ago
      Middle-aged, and have been typing for several decades.
• amatecha 7y ago
  People are most definitely making unique form factors like that: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-72157694155511464/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-... https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-72157699494181362/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-...
• seniorsassycat 7y ago
  I just finished building my first design. It doesn't include a trackpad but it has curved keys like the kinesis, a thumb cluster that is better then the ergo dox or kinesis (but not perfect). People are building crazy custom keyboards. https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf My next build will be more ambitious. I want to include a USB hub, a raspberry pi zero, a small screen, and a track{pad,point,ball}.