4 ms·

It might not be that "no one dares say it too loud," it might be that people don't hate it or even (like me) like this work towards rebalancing. btw being from

by genmon 7y ago

It might not be that "no one dares say it too loud," it might be that people don't hate it or even (like me) like this work towards rebalancing. btw being from the UK, "they" singular in text is normal, especially in this case where the gender of the player is unknown, and seeing he/she here would really trip me up (as it does when I read older articles from the US that use "he" arbitrarily). It's a style thing, but one I've always liked as more accurate.

JanSt 7y ago
As a non-english native, I didn‘t know that. I thought „they“ always meant more than one. What‘s the reasoning if you know the gender? How to differenciate between a group and a person whose gender is unknown?
- sarvind 7y ago
  It's not like words cannot be overloaded. Lots of languages use the plural form to show respect or politeness, or regard somebody with esteem (like the royal "we") for instance.
  - danielscrubs 7y ago
    But in this case it would lead to loss of information (singular or plural). I’d prefer he/she too or even a completely new word.
    - AgentME 7y ago
      Having more information isn't always better. Imagine if our language had pronouns that told you the race of the person, or whether they had a beard or not. A culture that primarily used pronouns like these would probably develop very strong arbitrary associations related to race or beards. If people were familiar with alternatives, plenty would be uncomfortable with one of these details always being packed in to references to them.
      - danielscrubs 7y ago
        Well, always using those words would say something about the culture, not the language. In my language journalists created a new word for it that was met with resistance first, but it doesn’t corrupt another word and it has been added to all dictionaries and is used heavily.
- r721 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
  - JanSt 7y ago
    Thanks, that's interesting. "Every one must judge according to their own feelings." That's a nice example on how it can be used. Most of the older examples include "every" or "any" before using they. I think I need to study that part of the language as (at least in some situations) it seems like a nice way to get around using a generic form.
Hard_Space 7y ago
When working as a sub-editor, the use of 'they' really solves a political problem for me that can't be addressed any other way. That said, it is massively misused in the source article, since the player is clearly either female or determined to identify as female - which also solves the problem.
- genmon 7y ago
  Well there are two entities: the character and the player. The character is female, but a player doesn't need to identify as female to have a female character. Since the article is about the player more generally (the article discusses the player in other games), and the player prefers not to be gendered, I think "they" is appropriate here.
sleavey 7y ago
I'm from the UK and I honestly didn't even realise the use of they in the article until I read the parent comment. It seems totally natural to me and feels like a perfect way to avoid gender in contexts where it is unknown or intentionally avoided. I find it incredibly annoying when I read text with made up or assumed genders, especially as the parent commenter points out when articles use she for inanimate objects or objects with undefined genders.
edejong 7y ago
To me and many others it feels as a forced, immature (almost childlike), aloof desire for change. You use words like ‘rebalance’ as if there is an objective, universally shared belief our culture is out of balance. Thank God we have you as our savior. Things will get out of balance the more it is forced, because with every politically correct motion, there is an equal opposite motion. All that is achieved is further polarization and misunderstanding. To say the articles’ use of ‘they’ is normal in the UK feel duplicitous. I’ve read my fair share of British literature, newspapers and articles. The text feels completely alien to British writing.
- genmon 7y ago
  Because "they" in text has always been common for me, it's not a change and not forced -- it's been like this as long as I can remember. I can't speak for the British writing you've read, but as a Brit living in and having grown up in the UK, singular non-gendered "they" is normal and common in both formal and informal text. Could be a function of my social context or the writing I've been exposed to, it's true. We all have our own perspective.
  - jon_richards 7y ago
    There's even an example of it in the Canterbury Tales (one of the most iconic early English texts). I can't remember the exact line now, but it got me quite annoyed when American writing teachers would mark my uses of "they" as incorrect and demand "he or she".
    - edejong 7y ago
      "They" as generic third person singular goes back at least five centuries. I am (obviously) referring to address a known individual using "They" / "Their".
  - edejong 7y ago
    It is common in colloquial English to use "they"/"their" as a generic third person singular. For example: "Could the person who left their umbrella please pick it up?" However, here it is used in a rather new setting for a specific and known individual. This is a rather new phenomenon pushed by the transgender and genderqueer community. I am specifically addressing the latter usage of the form 'they' in the third person singular. Do you agree this form is new? If not, could you give references to earlier usage than, say 1990?
comex 7y ago
As a relevant perspective, here is a recent NYTimes op-ed advocating for the use of singular “they” even when the gender is known: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/opinion/pronoun-they-gender.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/opinion/pronoun-they-gend...

by genmon 7y ago

JanSt 7y ago

As a non-english native, I didn‘t know that. I thought „they“ always meant more than one. What‘s the reasoning if you know the gender? How to differenciate between a group and a person whose gender is unknown?

sarvind 7y ago
It's not like words cannot be overloaded. Lots of languages use the plural form to show respect or politeness, or regard somebody with esteem (like the royal "we") for instance.
- danielscrubs 7y ago
  But in this case it would lead to loss of information (singular or plural). I’d prefer he/she too or even a completely new word.
  - AgentME 7y ago
    Having more information isn't always better. Imagine if our language had pronouns that told you the race of the person, or whether they had a beard or not. A culture that primarily used pronouns like these would probably develop very strong arbitrary associations related to race or beards. If people were familiar with alternatives, plenty would be uncomfortable with one of these details always being packed in to references to them.
    - danielscrubs 7y ago
      Well, always using those words would say something about the culture, not the language. In my language journalists created a new word for it that was met with resistance first, but it doesn’t corrupt another word and it has been added to all dictionaries and is used heavily.
r721 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
- JanSt 7y ago
  Thanks, that's interesting. "Every one must judge according to their own feelings." That's a nice example on how it can be used. Most of the older examples include "every" or "any" before using they. I think I need to study that part of the language as (at least in some situations) it seems like a nice way to get around using a generic form.

Hard_Space 7y ago

When working as a sub-editor, the use of 'they' really solves a political problem for me that can't be addressed any other way. That said, it is massively misused in the source article, since the player is clearly either female or determined to identify as female - which also solves the problem.

genmon 7y ago
Well there are two entities: the character and the player. The character is female, but a player doesn't need to identify as female to have a female character. Since the article is about the player more generally (the article discusses the player in other games), and the player prefers not to be gendered, I think "they" is appropriate here.

sleavey 7y ago

I'm from the UK and I honestly didn't even realise the use of they in the article until I read the parent comment. It seems totally natural to me and feels like a perfect way to avoid gender in contexts where it is unknown or intentionally avoided. I find it incredibly annoying when I read text with made up or assumed genders, especially as the parent commenter points out when articles use she for inanimate objects or objects with undefined genders.

edejong 7y ago

To me and many others it feels as a forced, immature (almost childlike), aloof desire for change. You use words like ‘rebalance’ as if there is an objective, universally shared belief our culture is out of balance. Thank God we have you as our savior. Things will get out of balance the more it is forced, because with every politically correct motion, there is an equal opposite motion. All that is achieved is further polarization and misunderstanding. To say the articles’ use of ‘they’ is normal in the UK feel duplicitous. I’ve read my fair share of British literature, newspapers and articles. The text feels completely alien to British writing.

genmon 7y ago
Because "they" in text has always been common for me, it's not a change and not forced -- it's been like this as long as I can remember. I can't speak for the British writing you've read, but as a Brit living in and having grown up in the UK, singular non-gendered "they" is normal and common in both formal and informal text. Could be a function of my social context or the writing I've been exposed to, it's true. We all have our own perspective.
- jon_richards 7y ago
  There's even an example of it in the Canterbury Tales (one of the most iconic early English texts). I can't remember the exact line now, but it got me quite annoyed when American writing teachers would mark my uses of "they" as incorrect and demand "he or she".
  - edejong 7y ago
    "They" as generic third person singular goes back at least five centuries. I am (obviously) referring to address a known individual using "They" / "Their".
- edejong 7y ago
  It is common in colloquial English to use "they"/"their" as a generic third person singular. For example: "Could the person who left their umbrella please pick it up?" However, here it is used in a rather new setting for a specific and known individual. This is a rather new phenomenon pushed by the transgender and genderqueer community. I am specifically addressing the latter usage of the form 'they' in the third person singular. Do you agree this form is new? If not, could you give references to earlier usage than, say 1990?

comex 7y ago

As a relevant perspective, here is a recent NYTimes op-ed advocating for the use of singular “they” even when the gender is known: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/opinion/pronoun-they-gender.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/10/opinion/pronoun-they-gend...