7 ms·

Sounds like everyone at UC is going to use SciHub now, and most likely won't switch back once access gets restored? This seems like a self-defeating move on El

Sounds like everyone at UC is going to use SciHub now, and most likely won't switch back once access gets restored? This seems like a self-defeating move on Elsevier's part? Incidentally, I heard from someone who worked at Elsevier around four years ago that the working environment there was terrible, and she couldn't wait to leave. That doesn't seem surprising.

Vinnl 7y ago
Well, they've been maintaining access for institutions that cancelled their subscriptions for presumably this reason pretty often already, but as more and more institutions jumped on the train, that's not really tenable: why would others keep paying subscriptions if you're not going to cut off access if they don't? But of course, if it turns out that access is not that necessary anyway, people will stop paying too. But well, that's the risk if you're not adding that much value. And by now, Elsevier has seen this coming long enough that they've hedged their bets well enough not to be reliant on journal subscriptions alone any more. In fact, I'm sure they'll have considered the past few years in which subscriptions hadn't yet massively been cancelled as being a windfall.
- 0az 7y ago
  Based on the email I got last week, they have a contractual obligation for old content. As for the new issues: I believe there's a standing recommendation to look for preprints or ask the authors for a copy.
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    Yes, I think usually access is perpetual, just as it would have been had the library had a physical copy. For new issues, I'm confident people will manage; as you say, preprints have taken root in many more disciplines, and there are plenty of alternatives - legal ones, like inter-library loan, and Sci-Hub.
Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
> Sounds like everyone at UC is going to use SciHub now Plenty of people already do. It's much easier to use than any kind of library proxy service if you're not on campus, and it's also far more reliable. Even if you have access, sci-hub often has things that the library doesn't.
- ImaCake 7y ago
  I have access to uni libraries elsewhere, but I can provide my own anecdote. At home it's sci-hub, on uni wifi it's just via the website which usually automatically grants access seamlessly. Basically, whichever is least inconvenient.
xiii1408 7y ago
Or arXiv. Elsevier authors can post their papers on arXiv and/or their own website.
- tingletech 7y ago
  UC authors can put their author's final versions in https://escholarship.org https://escholarship.org
- jszymborski 7y ago
  That's not strictly the case. This practice is actually infringing on your (albeit bonkers) agreement with Elsevier. You can only share copies with those who requested it as an act of "professional courtesy".
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    Clicking a link is requesting it, and I am professionally courteous to everyone.
    - whatshisface 7y ago
      Despite the popular reputation of lawyers, the courts typically frown on interpretative trickery (unless you are so good at it that you can make the reasonable interpretation sound like the tricky one).
      - dotancohen 7y ago
        The action is actually called "an HTTP _request_".
  - Vinnl 7y ago
    To all authors: note that it's often possible to modify the contract to enable it. They'll often not notice or just approve it. See https://sparcopen.org/our-work/author-rights/ https://sparcopen.org/our-work/author-rights/
tingletech 7y ago
There are ways we (UC libraries) provide access to the content still w/o using sci hub https://osc.universityofcalifornia.edu/open-access-at-uc/publisher-negotiations/alternative-access-to-articles/ https://osc.universityofcalifornia.edu/open-access-at-uc/pub...
CamperBob2 7y ago
My guess is that this announcement will coincide with a new wave of technical or legal assaults against SciHub. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, it would have made more sense for Elsevier to go after smaller targets first. Dinosaurs die hard.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  But die they do and in the case of Elsevier it can't happen fast enough. It's about time the execs get publicly named and shamed and interviewed about how they feel about holding back progress.
  - patrick5415 7y ago
    It could just as well be argued that the researchers who choose to publish there ought to be publicly shamed. Elsevier is nothing without an army willing accomplices.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      That's got to be one of the best examples of victim blaming if there ever was one. Do you realize that these 'willing accomplices' have extremely little choice in the matter? Academia is a battlefield where grand money is the reason for competition and publishing in these magazines is pretty much the only way to further ones' career unless the universities take a stand, which is exactly what TFA is all about.
      - patrick5415 7y ago
        I know exactly what I’m talking about. I’ve been an academic. You can call it victim blaming all you like, but you’re just removing personal responsibility from the picture. Nobody forced these people into their profession, nobody is forcing them to publish with any given journal, and nobody is forcing them to remain academics. We always have choice. Passing the buck and saying “I believe what I’m doing is wrong, but until there’s a policy that prevents everybody else from doing it too, I won’t change” is just lazy.

Vinnl 7y ago

Well, they've been maintaining access for institutions that cancelled their subscriptions for presumably this reason pretty often already, but as more and more institutions jumped on the train, that's not really tenable: why would others keep paying subscriptions if you're not going to cut off access if they don't? But of course, if it turns out that access is not that necessary anyway, people will stop paying too. But well, that's the risk if you're not adding that much value. And by now, Elsevier has seen this coming long enough that they've hedged their bets well enough not to be reliant on journal subscriptions alone any more. In fact, I'm sure they'll have considered the past few years in which subscriptions hadn't yet massively been cancelled as being a windfall.

0az 7y ago
Based on the email I got last week, they have a contractual obligation for old content. As for the new issues: I believe there's a standing recommendation to look for preprints or ask the authors for a copy.
- Vinnl 7y ago
  Yes, I think usually access is perpetual, just as it would have been had the library had a physical copy. For new issues, I'm confident people will manage; as you say, preprints have taken root in many more disciplines, and there are plenty of alternatives - legal ones, like inter-library loan, and Sci-Hub.

Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago

> Sounds like everyone at UC is going to use SciHub now Plenty of people already do. It's much easier to use than any kind of library proxy service if you're not on campus, and it's also far more reliable. Even if you have access, sci-hub often has things that the library doesn't.

ImaCake 7y ago
I have access to uni libraries elsewhere, but I can provide my own anecdote. At home it's sci-hub, on uni wifi it's just via the website which usually automatically grants access seamlessly. Basically, whichever is least inconvenient.

xiii1408 7y ago

Or arXiv. Elsevier authors can post their papers on arXiv and/or their own website.

tingletech 7y ago
UC authors can put their author's final versions in https://escholarship.org https://escholarship.org
jszymborski 7y ago
That's not strictly the case. This practice is actually infringing on your (albeit bonkers) agreement with Elsevier. You can only share copies with those who requested it as an act of "professional courtesy".
- cortesoft 7y ago
  Clicking a link is requesting it, and I am professionally courteous to everyone.
  - whatshisface 7y ago
    Despite the popular reputation of lawyers, the courts typically frown on interpretative trickery (unless you are so good at it that you can make the reasonable interpretation sound like the tricky one).
    - dotancohen 7y ago
      The action is actually called "an HTTP _request_".
- Vinnl 7y ago
  To all authors: note that it's often possible to modify the contract to enable it. They'll often not notice or just approve it. See https://sparcopen.org/our-work/author-rights/ https://sparcopen.org/our-work/author-rights/

tingletech 7y ago

There are ways we (UC libraries) provide access to the content still w/o using sci hub https://osc.universityofcalifornia.edu/open-access-at-uc/publisher-negotiations/alternative-access-to-articles/ https://osc.universityofcalifornia.edu/open-access-at-uc/pub...

CamperBob2 7y ago

My guess is that this announcement will coincide with a new wave of technical or legal assaults against SciHub. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, it would have made more sense for Elsevier to go after smaller targets first. Dinosaurs die hard.

jacquesm 7y ago
But die they do and in the case of Elsevier it can't happen fast enough. It's about time the execs get publicly named and shamed and interviewed about how they feel about holding back progress.
- patrick5415 7y ago
  It could just as well be argued that the researchers who choose to publish there ought to be publicly shamed. Elsevier is nothing without an army willing accomplices.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    That's got to be one of the best examples of victim blaming if there ever was one. Do you realize that these 'willing accomplices' have extremely little choice in the matter? Academia is a battlefield where grand money is the reason for competition and publishing in these magazines is pretty much the only way to further ones' career unless the universities take a stand, which is exactly what TFA is all about.
    - patrick5415 7y ago
      I know exactly what I’m talking about. I’ve been an academic. You can call it victim blaming all you like, but you’re just removing personal responsibility from the picture. Nobody forced these people into their profession, nobody is forcing them to publish with any given journal, and nobody is forcing them to remain academics. We always have choice. Passing the buck and saying “I believe what I’m doing is wrong, but until there’s a policy that prevents everybody else from doing it too, I won’t change” is just lazy.