4 ms·

Galileo navigation system facing service degradation or loss of signal

103 points by leemailll 7y ago

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
Fun fact, the Galileo system was designed to be more accurate and difficult to jam than the civilian GPS but after the US saw this a potential threat and considered shooting down the satellites in case of a global conflict, the design was switched to a frequency they could easily jam.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Tension_with_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...
- jki275 7y ago
  What makes a frequency easy to jam?
  - wil421 7y ago
    >The frequency initially chosen for Galileo would have made it impossible for the US to block the Galileo signals without also interfering with its own GPS signals. Not an answer to your question but it was more about being able to jam GNSS while still being able to use GPS.
    - jbverschoor 7y ago
      That would actually be the sane solution against stupid warfare..
    - 420codebro 7y ago
      GPS is one of many GNSS systems. I believe you mean other GNSS systems (EU, India, Russia).
  - dewey 7y ago
    > At issue is the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) desire to be able to jam other radionavigation signals in a theater of operation so as to provide an edge to allied users of military GPS receivers. This "selective denial" capability would be complicated by the presence of an encrypted PRS signal atop the M-code bands, because the U.S. could not jam the PRS without jamming its own signals. There's some more info here: https://arquivo.pt/wayback/20090628141907/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BPW/is_12_13/ai_n27579865/ https://arquivo.pt/wayback/20090628141907/http://findarticle...
  - tolqen 7y ago
    That frequency not being the same as the one used by the US’s own GNSS system enabling them to block it without blocking their own service.
    - sgc 7y ago
      And vice versa.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- nabla9 7y ago
  That's not what the link you provided says. The new Galileo frequency is just as hard to jam as the original frequency. The change was made to allow blocking or jamming of one GNSS without affecting the other.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  It seems like the situation was resolved in the best way possible. It is not that Galileo was harder to jam, but that jamming Galileo would also mean jamming their own GPS. So they settled on using different frequencies, which means you can jam one without jamming the other, and vice versa. Also, possibly as a result of these negotiations, the US said they will stop using selective availability for GPS. For me, that's the best solution for everyone, at least in times of peace. And in times of war, well, all bets are off anyways.
Proven 7y ago
That is hilarious - after billions in cost overruns. Government doing business
the-dude 7y ago
Just a coincidence.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  I think someone is refusing to return a slab to someone.
wybiral 7y ago
The link seems under heavy stress right now but here's an archive of it: https://web.archive.org/web/20190713001332/https://insidegnss.com/galileo-interruptus/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190713001332/https://insidegns...
buboard 7y ago
Ok first slack, twitter, facebook, and now this? I told you it’s aliens
- the-dude 7y ago
  Google, Cloudflare, Azure, Stripe.
- wybiral 7y ago
  * slides on tin foil helmet * Well, yeah, they've been trying to distract people away from the whole Area 51 thing.
- neals 7y ago
  We'll find out soon though, if it's really Aliens, as we storm the desert.
f_50C137y 7y ago
Wow! I've been having some issues navigating whilst driving with Google Maps and Strava for running these last few days. I assumed the issue was my smartphone, but I am curious to know if the issue was, in fact, due to the Galileo issues listed.
- reportingsjr 7y ago
  If you're using a phone for those services then almost certainly not. Almost all phones support multiple GNSS (GPS, galileo, GLONASS, etc) so one going down shouldn't cause issues.
6d6b73 7y ago
All of the satellites? What could possible cause all of them to fail at the same time? It's not hardware because they weren't all switched at the same time. Software?
- the-dude 7y ago
  Wrong config push.
  - wybiral 7y ago
    Yeah, bad regex.
- sambull 7y ago
  Common frequency. Someones blocking them?
  - marcinzm 7y ago
    That could cause a regional outage but this isn't being described as such, seems global.
- nabla9 7y ago
  Satellites are just part of the GNSS system. There are multiple control centers and network of sensor , uplink, telemetry, tracking and control stations around the world. The problem is most likely on the ground. When GNSS satellites are not getting updated data from the ground stations their accuracy starts to degrade.
  - Rebelgecko 7y ago
    From the updated version of the linked article, looks like the ground station that keeps the clocks synced up is down or not giving the sats accurate date
- jdnier 7y ago
  Sounds kind of like the recent global Cloudflare outage. That outage started with a regex (WAF rule) being pushed out that immediately exhibited pathological backtracking behavior and "caused CPUs to become exhausted on every CPU core that handles HTTP/HTTPS traffic on the Cloudflare network worldwide." https://blog.cloudflare.com/details-of-the-cloudflare-outage-on-july-2-2019/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/details-of-the-cloudflare-outage...
PeterStuer 7y ago
You can find the current system status and its history here https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Inform...
diggan 7y ago
Since the website itself is not working, here is gsc-europa's own dashboard: https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Inform... This is the specific incident: https://www.gsc-europa.eu/notice-advisory-to-galileo-users-nagu-2019025 https://www.gsc-europa.eu/notice-advisory-to-galileo-users-n... Seems to have started 2019-07-11 14:45 (UTC) so a couple of days ago. Apparently, they used to have failures with the clocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Clock_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...) so might be something similar.
- wybiral 7y ago
  > Apparently, they used to have failures with the clocks That would explain if a few of them were weird, but the report said "SATELLITE AFFECTED: ALL" which would be quite a coincidence if each clock on each satellite failed at the same time.
  - wybiral 7y ago
    The recent update on the report seems to point to an Italian facility that relates to timing though: > Guenter Hein, Professor Emeritus of Excellence at the University FAF Munich told us, “As far as I know, it is a problem of the PTF [Precise Timing Facility] in Italy – time has an impact on the whole constellation!”
wybiral 7y ago
There was a recent study [1] looking into the economic impact of GPS in the US which "estimate that the loss of GPS service would have a $1 billion per-day impact". Not sure how that translates to Galileo GNSS. [1] https://www.rti.org/sites/default/files/gps_finalreport.pdf https://www.rti.org/sites/default/files/gps_finalreport.pdf
- riffraff 7y ago
  IIUC, the analysis assumes other systems would also be disrupted, as modern devices support multiple location services (gps, galileo, glonass). So there isn't really a case of GPS failing while Galileo works and viceversa, it's just "everything fails" vs "something works".
jakegold 7y ago
The EU's stance is that Galileo is a neutral technology, available to all countries and everyone. At first, EU officials did not want to change their original plans for Galileo, but have since reached the compromise that Galileo is to use a different frequency. This allows the blocking or jamming of either GNSS without affecting the other.

103 points by leemailll 7y ago

Fun fact, the Galileo system was designed to be more accurate and difficult to jam than the civilian GPS but after the US saw this a potential threat and considered shooting down the satellites in case of a global conflict, the design was switched to a frequency they could easily jam.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Tension_with_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...

jki275 7y ago
What makes a frequency easy to jam?
- wil421 7y ago
  >The frequency initially chosen for Galileo would have made it impossible for the US to block the Galileo signals without also interfering with its own GPS signals. Not an answer to your question but it was more about being able to jam GNSS while still being able to use GPS.
  - jbverschoor 7y ago
    That would actually be the sane solution against stupid warfare..
  - 420codebro 7y ago
    GPS is one of many GNSS systems. I believe you mean other GNSS systems (EU, India, Russia).
- dewey 7y ago
  > At issue is the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) desire to be able to jam other radionavigation signals in a theater of operation so as to provide an edge to allied users of military GPS receivers. This "selective denial" capability would be complicated by the presence of an encrypted PRS signal atop the M-code bands, because the U.S. could not jam the PRS without jamming its own signals. There's some more info here: https://arquivo.pt/wayback/20090628141907/http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BPW/is_12_13/ai_n27579865/ https://arquivo.pt/wayback/20090628141907/http://findarticle...
- tolqen 7y ago
  That frequency not being the same as the one used by the US’s own GNSS system enabling them to block it without blocking their own service.
  - sgc 7y ago
    And vice versa.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
nabla9 7y ago
That's not what the link you provided says. The new Galileo frequency is just as hard to jam as the original frequency. The change was made to allow blocking or jamming of one GNSS without affecting the other.
GuB-42 7y ago
It seems like the situation was resolved in the best way possible. It is not that Galileo was harder to jam, but that jamming Galileo would also mean jamming their own GPS. So they settled on using different frequencies, which means you can jam one without jamming the other, and vice versa. Also, possibly as a result of these negotiations, the US said they will stop using selective availability for GPS. For me, that's the best solution for everyone, at least in times of peace. And in times of war, well, all bets are off anyways.

Proven 7y ago

That is hilarious - after billions in cost overruns. Government doing business

the-dude 7y ago

Just a coincidence.

jimmaswell 7y ago
I think someone is refusing to return a slab to someone.

wybiral 7y ago

The link seems under heavy stress right now but here's an archive of it: https://web.archive.org/web/20190713001332/https://insidegnss.com/galileo-interruptus/ https://web.archive.org/web/20190713001332/https://insidegns...

buboard 7y ago

Ok first slack, twitter, facebook, and now this? I told you it’s aliens

the-dude 7y ago
Google, Cloudflare, Azure, Stripe.
wybiral 7y ago
* slides on tin foil helmet * Well, yeah, they've been trying to distract people away from the whole Area 51 thing.
neals 7y ago
We'll find out soon though, if it's really Aliens, as we storm the desert.

f_50C137y 7y ago

Wow! I've been having some issues navigating whilst driving with Google Maps and Strava for running these last few days. I assumed the issue was my smartphone, but I am curious to know if the issue was, in fact, due to the Galileo issues listed.

reportingsjr 7y ago
If you're using a phone for those services then almost certainly not. Almost all phones support multiple GNSS (GPS, galileo, GLONASS, etc) so one going down shouldn't cause issues.

6d6b73 7y ago

All of the satellites? What could possible cause all of them to fail at the same time? It's not hardware because they weren't all switched at the same time. Software?

the-dude 7y ago
Wrong config push.
- wybiral 7y ago
  Yeah, bad regex.
sambull 7y ago
Common frequency. Someones blocking them?
- marcinzm 7y ago
  That could cause a regional outage but this isn't being described as such, seems global.
nabla9 7y ago
Satellites are just part of the GNSS system. There are multiple control centers and network of sensor , uplink, telemetry, tracking and control stations around the world. The problem is most likely on the ground. When GNSS satellites are not getting updated data from the ground stations their accuracy starts to degrade.
- Rebelgecko 7y ago
  From the updated version of the linked article, looks like the ground station that keeps the clocks synced up is down or not giving the sats accurate date
jdnier 7y ago
Sounds kind of like the recent global Cloudflare outage. That outage started with a regex (WAF rule) being pushed out that immediately exhibited pathological backtracking behavior and "caused CPUs to become exhausted on every CPU core that handles HTTP/HTTPS traffic on the Cloudflare network worldwide." https://blog.cloudflare.com/details-of-the-cloudflare-outage-on-july-2-2019/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/details-of-the-cloudflare-outage...

PeterStuer 7y ago

You can find the current system status and its history here https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Inform...

diggan 7y ago

Since the website itself is not working, here is gsc-europa's own dashboard: https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Information https://www.gsc-europa.eu/system-status/Constellation-Inform... This is the specific incident: https://www.gsc-europa.eu/notice-advisory-to-galileo-users-nagu-2019025 https://www.gsc-europa.eu/notice-advisory-to-galileo-users-n... Seems to have started 2019-07-11 14:45 (UTC) so a couple of days ago. Apparently, they used to have failures with the clocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)#Clock_failures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_(satellite_navigation)...) so might be something similar.

wybiral 7y ago
> Apparently, they used to have failures with the clocks That would explain if a few of them were weird, but the report said "SATELLITE AFFECTED: ALL" which would be quite a coincidence if each clock on each satellite failed at the same time.
- wybiral 7y ago
  The recent update on the report seems to point to an Italian facility that relates to timing though: > Guenter Hein, Professor Emeritus of Excellence at the University FAF Munich told us, “As far as I know, it is a problem of the PTF [Precise Timing Facility] in Italy – time has an impact on the whole constellation!”

wybiral 7y ago

There was a recent study [1] looking into the economic impact of GPS in the US which "estimate that the loss of GPS service would have a $1 billion per-day impact". Not sure how that translates to Galileo GNSS. [1] https://www.rti.org/sites/default/files/gps_finalreport.pdf https://www.rti.org/sites/default/files/gps_finalreport.pdf

riffraff 7y ago
IIUC, the analysis assumes other systems would also be disrupted, as modern devices support multiple location services (gps, galileo, glonass). So there isn't really a case of GPS failing while Galileo works and viceversa, it's just "everything fails" vs "something works".

jakegold 7y ago

The EU's stance is that Galileo is a neutral technology, available to all countries and everyone. At first, EU officials did not want to change their original plans for Galileo, but have since reached the compromise that Galileo is to use a different frequency. This allows the blocking or jamming of either GNSS without affecting the other.