13 ms·

Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

150 points by dopplerac 7y ago

aasasd 7y ago
You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are even more crooked, and of course there's no wrist support.
- doyoulikeworms 7y ago
  > Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle that sounds like an amazing product TBH-- does anything like that exist?
  - kajecounterhack 7y ago
    No touchpad but: https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io
    - isoprophlex 7y ago
      That looks incredible: build quality, ergonomics, there's even an Any key But the edge of maple body looks a bit high. Do you own one? How comfortable is it to rest your wrists on it? (I prefer the shallowest possible keyboards myself)
      - lincolnq 7y ago
        I have one of these too. I ended up not using it because I preferred my long-standing kinesis. It was quite comfortable though; my main complaint was with the switches -- I didn't like the Matias switches it ships with (I prefer Cherry Browns). I also felt that I wanted more thumb-keys, but that's obviously a preference I inherited from my longtime Kinesis usage :). If the design appeals to you I do still recommend it despite not preferring it myself. The build quality was great. I don't have any comments in particular about the height, not something I noticed.
      - LukeShu 7y ago
        I have one too. Because the body of the keyboard doesn't cut off where the keys end, and supports so much of your wrist, you don't notice that it's so thick, the "desk surface" is just that much higher.
  - rubenfonseca 7y ago
    What about this: https://www.keymouse.com/ https://www.keymouse.com/
  - maximilianroos 7y ago
    This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
- alpaca128 7y ago
  A lot of people build their own ergonomic split keyboards, there are even websites like keeb.io which focus purely on kits for such variants, and open source projects like the ergodox or dactyl keyboards that everyone can 3D print(or otherwise create) and handwire with their own choice of componentes and materials. Of course it's not the majority but a market exists and many of the kits are almost constantly sold out.
  - frostburg 7y ago
    I built a Nyquist from keeb.io parts (and zealios 67g switches). It was mostly to learn how to flash QMK to a microcontroller, solder the components etc., but I used it for a few weeks and it was surprisingly comfortable, better than my usual topre novatouch.
    - in_hindsight 7y ago
      How do you find 67g switches? I built quefrency with 67g Zilents and while they are comfortable I wonder if they are a bit too stiff for fingers joints health
      - frostburg 7y ago
        I like them, but I have a somewhat soft typing touch and don't bottom them out (they're harder to bottom out than most switches, too). I don't know if lighter switches (which are likely going to be easier to bottom out) might be better for joints.
- zerr 7y ago
  Kinesis looks good for data entry and such keyboard-only activities, but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable. Any experiences?
  - lincolnq 7y ago
    I have used a kinesis for 12+ years as my main keyboard. I'm not fully sure what you are asking -- I would guess you're referring to the fact that it's harder than usual to type with one hand and mouse with the other, because you have to reach across to the other side of the keyboard? If that's what you're asking, I agree -- but I consider it a good thing :). I found that the kinesis helped me focus on touch-typing more and relying more on keyboard shortcuts to navigate; it's a bit of a learning curve but ultimately worth it for ergonomics and speed.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable Parent did say "and slapping touchpads in the middle".
  - aasasd 7y ago
    In case of the browser, I've augmented it with the Vimium add-on. I've gotten so used to touch-typing that I'm annoyed when I have to reach for the mouse, even despite the inherent delay for reading Vimium's label on a link. That's why I want a touchpad in quick reach. And also for the two-finger scroll with its analog sensitivity. This keyboard-reliance has led me to another observation, that web devs don't test keyboard scroll on their sites.
- eyeball 7y ago
  https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ As soon as the trackpoint modules are complete this will be the dream for me.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    very cool, and also the most 90s looking piece of electronics i've seen in a while
    - brodsky 7y ago
      true! I'm very tempted to finish mine with custom airbrushed patina á la "abandoned soviet cold war bunker" :)
      - eyeball 7y ago
        They sell different color cases. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4/ultimate_nuclear_hacking/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4...
        brodsky 7y ago
        yes, i have the yellow one. it looks awesome, but i'm really longing for some post-apocalyptic touches (think Metro rather than Fallout). don't have an airbrush though, nor do I know how to use one. So this will have to wait...
  - nxpnsv 7y ago
    I have one. It’s sweet even without the modules, can always order them later. I consider it one of those few perfect purchases. Only issue in 1/2 year: I thought the cool coiled cable was too short so i bought a straight replacement cable for 5€.
    - brodsky 7y ago
      you can use any old phone cable by the way!
- tjoff 7y ago
  There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around. The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R... As for touchpads they kind of suck as an input device (imo), but it would be easy to incorporate an apple device in the above. But people seem to be experimenting more with large ball mouses such as the kensington trackball or something like the point-stick that thinkpads use, where you don't even have to lift your hands of home-row.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    I was a big trackball fan for many years (mostly Logitech models). Although I admit I switched away, in part because there was at least a period when I didn't like any of the models available, but also because Apple finally did a trackpad I actively liked rather than barely tolerated.
  - oposa 7y ago
    > But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprimanded if you use too much machine time. Why people dump things on github without documentation for their resume. And why the hacker news thread on the raspberry pi is about what people are using rather than what they have created. A keyboard is a very basic object. It is almost like the hello world of hardware. Despite this it is very challenging to produce and publish one [0][1], or something like one [2]. But these stories mostly fall of deaf ears as this important part of diy culture has become marginalized. [0] https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-startling-discovery https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-s... [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ [2] http://www.tlalexander.com/business/ http://www.tlalexander.com/business/
- TurboHaskal 7y ago
  It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mechanical keyboard community because they don’t feel tactile enough. Let alone the fact that they dare using rubber in the keyboards. Fortunately they seem to be busier building them from scratch and posting the results on Reddit than actually typing.
  - Klathmon 7y ago
    I absolutely haven't gotten that feeling from the mechanical keyboard community. They seem pretty accepting of anything, and are often more concerned with finding the right keyboard for what you want. There are jokes and memes that go around, but not many people have issues with any kinds of switches. Some people really prefer the tactile feel, and others really want the super high activation forces. It's a tradeoff, and there are more options now than ever. I have a split ortholinear keyboard with Kailh blue 50cN activation force "clicky" switches, a BDN9 macro pad with Cherry MX White (80cN "clicky" switches), a planck with cherry MX brown 55cN quiet "tactile" switches, and an aging das-keyboard 4 ultimate that I replaced the stock greetech switches with MOD L Linear switches with a 45cN activation weight. I have to say that I thought the lighter activation would be nice, but it was actually MORE stressful for my hands because even though I wouldn't normally accidentally activate the switch by resting my hands, if I moved too quickly or kind of let my fingers relax it would press down enough sometimes to type accidentally, leading to me kind of "hovering" my fingers above the keys all the time. I also missed the tactile feel that I was getting used to on other boards to avoid having to "bottom out" the keys for the most part. I'm not going to say it's worse for everyone, but for me I greatly prefer 50-70cN activation force for typing, and I really like the "heavy" feel of the cherry MX White switches for my macro pad. You may like the lighter force switches. In that case you may want to go for linear switches as they tend to have smaller activation weights. Take a look at the Kalih silver or copper switches, or the cherry MX speed silver if you can find them. They are about as light as mechanical switches come.
  - 7y ago
- melling 7y ago
  It’s disappointing that there’s so little innovation. Surely, we must have learned more about ergonomics in the past half century? The DataHand was a new interesting “keyboard” design in the 1990’s, about 25 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand Btw, Xahlee has a great article on keyboard switches: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html
  - DanBC 7y ago
    There's some innovation but there are also aggressive patent holders who are holding things back. For example, Matius was stopping one-handed keyboards for a while. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html There were things like the Frogpad or the HandyKey Twiddler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA
    - oposa 7y ago
      It is also, like many things in hardware, a software problem. The purpose of a keyboard is to interact with software. And that software is biased towards certain layouts. It is hard to change the layout too much without quickly becoming a niche product. Add to that the barrier to entry to making a hardware product is still quite high, and relatively costly.
  - absorber 7y ago
    I tried to see if I could make a keyboard with slightly larger keys for my upcoming live music performances and I was thoroughly disappointed: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/e61riay/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24...
- solatic 7y ago
  No touchpad, but: https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
- EL_Loco 7y ago
  The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out in front of you, hands 12 to 14 inches apart. I bet most of human fine movement tasks were done with the hands close together (sewing for example). The position with your hands extended and 12 inches apart actually puts your elbows in a quite uncomfortable position, and I wouldn't be surprised if that in itself would lead to some injuries in that area (elbow). As for the ortholinear key designs, that's not very ergonomic either. Make a fist with your hands. Now open your fingers. Do they open in a parallel line pattern like the orthogonal keyboards? No, they don't. They spread out, in a star-like pattern. If the keys were laid out similar to that pattern then, yes, I might concede a benefit there. But these two regular complaints about traditional keyboards while hailing split and orthogonal keybords as well thought out ergonomic solutions seem more like a fad to me. By the way, I don't think the traditional typewriter-like keyboards are great, far from it. I do think, though, that our hands are pretty resilient, but not infinitely resilient. Too much repetitive work, insufficient rest, personal biomechanics, can all eventually lead to injuries, on all these types of keyboards. PS-> Who came up with calling it 'ortholinear'?
  - UkiahSmith 7y ago
    I have a split keyboard, and I think the real benefit is not that I can rotate my wrists, but that it allows me to pull my shoulder blades closer together. I sit more upright and have less back pain.
    - ianhowson 7y ago
      This. I also enjoy being able to move the two halves around through the day, shifting the muscular load around. It makes it easy to accommodate different seating, standing and lying positions. (I never figured out, despite 'ergonomics training', how I was supposed to hold my extended hands and arms upright for hours per day without shoulder and neck pain.)
- tfolbrecht 7y ago
  Thank God our arms have joints in three places allowing us to position them arbitrarily. Once you type one handed or use a mouse your ergonomic keyboard is less comfortable than the traditional geometry.
- mietek 7y ago
  Check out this 3D-printed recreation of a DataHand. https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
- maximilianroos 7y ago
  This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
- nixpulvis 7y ago
  Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/ http://www.altkeyboards.com/ The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false. I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys feel. Switching even from my thinkpad to friends butterfly MacBooks makes typing significantly harder for me. As far as RSI is concerned, there was a time when I used to play WoW and I thought I might have a problem with this, but between small hand stretches and maybe just luck, I don't have these problems anymore. Maybe they'll come back as I continue to get older. Here's a random reddit thread where random people seem to think posture and technique avoids RSI. I'm tempted to agree. https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists_get_rsi/ https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists... And some good advice http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-piano-practice-related-hand-injuries-and-muscle-pain/ http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-p...
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    If you compare a piano with a standard keyboard, there are a lot of differences. The problem with the standard keyboard is, that for touch-typing, the hands need to be angled very unnaturally, as they have to be close together, yet lined up in an almost parallel position. The only way to achive that is to flex your wrists, and that is where a lot of stress originates from. A piano is very wide, and you often have you hands spaced very far from each other. This reduces a lot of stress. Also, you don't have your fingers basically tied to the same positions, but during the play, the wrists change position a lot, so there is no static pressure into a single unnatural position. The active movement should be beneficial to your wrists too. Finally, the keys are pretty large, giving more possible hand positions to hit them.
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      The piano keyboard is pretty poorly designed from a pure user interface standpoint; its design is mostly dictated by the direct mechanical connection to a big bunch of parallel strings. Tons of pianists get RSI, which can seriously impact their careers. It is important for serious musicians to figure out a piano technique which does not require putting too much static load on any of the joints. An improved piano keyboard could help quite a bit, but it’s pretty hard to change piano keyboard layouts, since there are several centuries of repertoire built up around the current one, and pianos are very large, expensive, and difficult to modify.
- jandeboevrie 7y ago
  Here's my take on five years of split keyboards: https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_review_including_the_ErgoDox_EZ_Matias_Ergo_Pro_and_Kinesis_Freestyle_2.html https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_re...
- Phrodo_00 7y ago
  Because not a lot of people prefer touchpads over mice. I'd very much prefer a compact keyboard + comfortable mouse to that setup (and given the keyboards a lot of people are building, I'm not alone)
- userbinator 7y ago
  Why do you think that the keyboard is the problem, and not the indoctrination of "this is the right way to type and posture" leading to further stress? In fact, in my admittedly small sample of others I know who do have problems with their wrists, they were all ones who tried very hard to rigidly conform to the "standard" posture and move only the fingers of the hands instead of the whole arm. They were also people who hit the keys much harder than necessary. I use a standard flat QWERTY keyboard and I can type for hours at 150+ WPM with no problem, but I've had comments from some of those people above that I'm not doing it right... when they're the ones who are getting pains in their wrists, not me... If you try to keep your hands parallel to the keyboard no matter what, you are going to stress your wrists. Let them approach at whatever angle feels comfortable, and relax. That also happens to be the "trick" to typing faster too --- if you expend effort on trying to be "strict" about posture rather than just hitting the keys in whatever you feel to be the most comfortable way, you'll tire quickly, type slower, and stress your joints more. This is good: https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo160400673/55226294-white-laptop-as-seen-from-above-with-hands-typing-on-keyboard-.jpg?ver=6 https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo... This is not: http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_position.jpg http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_... (My resting position is more like awef and jio;)
  - uncletaco 7y ago
    How old are you, if you don't mind sharing?
    - userbinator 7y ago
      Middle-aged, and have been typing for several decades.
- amatecha 7y ago
  People are most definitely making unique form factors like that: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-72157694155511464/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-... https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-72157699494181362/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-...
- seniorsassycat 7y ago
  I just finished building my first design. It doesn't include a trackpad but it has curved keys like the kinesis, a thumb cluster that is better then the ergo dox or kinesis (but not perfect). People are building crazy custom keyboards. https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf My next build will be more ambitious. I want to include a USB hub, a raspberry pi zero, a small screen, and a track{pad,point,ball}.
thrwaway442 7y ago
Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not? A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before. I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is insane. I easily felt when I was making a mistake, I had confidence in what I was typing. (because of each little click.) But it was also really loud. Is that necessary? Is it part of what made me fast and accurate? The obvious way to test this which would not change the feel of the keyboard at all, would be to put in foam earbuds and then see if my typing rate or accuracy drops when I can't hear the keyboard. Unfortunately I didn't have any with me so I didn't try it. Can someone who uses a mechanical keyboard comment on whether the audible noise from it is part of the typing loop? if someone here has the inclination and a mechanical keyboard and happens to have hearing protection with them could you try it and tell me whether your typing rate or accuracy drops if you can't hear the keyboard? (if you do an online typing test with strong hearing protection in.) If it does not, then why aren't there any absolutely silent keyboards that just have the feel (tactile feedback) but without any loud click? I plain can't decide if this clickety-clack noise is part of the feedback loop the typist uses or not. My family member's keyboard was incredibly loud. -- [1] I'm being very literal so just to show you, on my own keyboard now I took a screenshot 15 seconds into a test, before I made any mistakes: https://imgur.com/a/eOejvsu https://imgur.com/a/eOejvsu - this was really hard for me to do now. On my own keyboard I can average 100 wpm for 60 seconds but it's really hard: https://imgur.com/a/tClgZR4 https://imgur.com/a/tClgZR4
- atoav 7y ago
  I have a keyboard with silent black MX switches and I never felt any need for clickyness. The cool thing about these linear switches (Black, Red, Silver, Grey) is that you can type extremely silent if you like to, by just hovering the keys or you can type loudly by bottoming them out (if somebody was wrong on the internet or so). When I type silently it is less loud than my lenovo notebook keyboard. For me the click was never really necessary — the resistance of the spring is already enough. Maybe it is because I play guitar, bass and piano.
mruts 7y ago
I’ve wanted to make a keyboard, but I’m not sure it’s possible to make something materially better than the kinesis advantage. I switched to it 10 years after my hands would feel numb after typing. I think I might have some problem other people don’t, but even for normal people, I find it hard to believe that a kinesis wouldn’t be better for them as well. I’ve seen some split diy keyboards, but none of them have the great concave wells kinesis does. Also the kinesis has macros, key remapping, and easy switching between Dvorak and QWERTY. Being able to type your password with one button is super cool!
- jakobegger 7y ago
  > Being able to type your password with one button is super cool! Do you really have a button on your keyboard mapped to type your password? If that's the case, I'm horrified. But I secretely wish I had a button like that too...
  - mruts 7y ago
    I have one for my work account. Whenever I have to update it I just overwrite the macro. I figure if it gets compromised they won't think it's my fault and I won't face any consequences :p
  - mythrwy 7y ago
    You can have exactly that if you set your password to "a"!
- erikerikson 7y ago
  I appreciated a lot about the one I got but had a hard time dealing with the increased friction introduced for non-alphanumeric keys I use regularly for programming.
- bingerman 7y ago
  Dactyl https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard is split and curved. Been thinking about building one, though I'd probably use wood as casing material and I know it will be a lot of work, so it may or may not materialize...
megous 7y ago
I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone else.
- DennisP 7y ago
  Not all mechs are noisy. Personally I was having significant pain in my finger joints until I switched to mechs with (fairly quiet) Cherry Brown and Red switches, and trained myself to type mostly without bottoming out the keys.
- the_pwner224 7y ago
  There are very clearly noticeable differences between the different keyswitches, and also between different shapes of keycaps. And not just in mechanical keyboards. I have used a mass-manufactured red (linear quiet) keyboard, a custom split blue (tactile loud/clicky) mechanical keyboards, the keyboard on my current XPS 15, and many years ago a MSI gaming laptop with a SteelSeries-made rubber dome keyboard. I realize these are audiophile terms, but there is a huge difference in how each keyboard feels and how satisfying it is to type on them. It's not just like having slightly 'cripser' etc. audio - the differences are extremely obvious. The red keyboard sucks for typing; I didn't realize how much until I switched to the blue. They offer no feedback and my WPM and error rate is much higher/lower on the reds. The blues have very solid feedback and feel nice to type on, the sound is also beautiful. The keyboard on the XPS 15 sucks, it's like typing on a piece of styrofoam - but better still than the new MacBook keybaords, which feel like like typing on a piece of wood. The MSI laptop had a very deep keyboard (almost as much key travel as a mechanical one) and the keys were heavy. The pressure required to push them down felt nice, and they bottomed out in a very satisfying way. I only use the MSI laptop a few times a year but I always look forward to typing on it. If you only drove 4 door sedans (normal rubber domes) you would think that people are crazy for wanting to get their own customized cars in different form factors, but if you drove a sedan and a SUV and a pickup truck and a motorcycle you would know that it's very much not just a 'placebo feel good' difference. On the other hand if you go to /r/mechanicalkeyboards you'll find weirdos spending $200 on keycaps and cases and $50 on USB cables, or people that collect dozens of keyboards, or people that use 10x3 keyboards (letters + space, no numbers ctrl alt etc.). Those people are the audiophile-type ones. I just have a nice $120 keyboard which I love to use and which will last a decade or more. You can find audiophile-type stuff for really every category of purchaseable products. I have a beautiful metal $15 fountain pen (Pilot Metropolitan); on /r/fountainpens you'll find weirdos spending $100 on an ugly octagonal pen made with transparent plastic. Here's a video on laundry machine collectors who bring dirty clothes to meets and listen/watch to the laundry machines go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U Also, to some people the sound is really pleasing. You may want to try out Bucklespring, which plays the sounds of an old IBM buckling-spring keyboard through your computer speakers, and you might realize why so many people like clicky keyboards. When I'm not using headphones I can hear the blues, when I am wearing headphones the blue switches are muffled and their sound mixes with the sound of Bucklespring. When I take the laptop outside and I'm alone I turn up the speakers a bit; the buckling spring keyboard on its own sounds amazingly good, and helps reduce the type-on-wood feeling of laptop keyboards. https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring
Animats 7y ago
As someone who restores old Teletype machines, I don't consider little key units with clickers in them to be a "mechanical keyboard". On a real mechanical keyboard, like a Teletype or an IBM Selectric, you cannot push two keys at once. The mechanism resists that.
garbre 7y ago
How many of these tiny keyboards need to ship before linux makes the magic sysrq key remappable?
- cogburnd02 7y ago
  Well, you can do it; you just have to patch your kernel. I googled 'linux remap sysrq'.
  - garbre 7y ago
    Everything is possible if you patch your kernel...
drewg123 7y ago
What I want is a non-radical, normal sized, ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I basically want an MS natural keyboard with a decent feel. Does such a thing exist? Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? They don't want to spend the money for more switches? I thought I found something "close enough" in this split mechanical keyboard (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FK74QY5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FK74QY5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...). But it is "tiny" and doesn't have normal function keys, etc. After a while its lack of keys drove me crazy and I went back to my old mushy MS Natural.
- oposa 7y ago
  > Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? They don't want to spend the money for more switches? Yes, to some extent at least. But maybe more the pcb, plate, case etc. I have a pcb for a ms natural style keyboard (without the numpad) and the effective size is 40x15 cm (16x6 inches). Not that expensive to get in China, but I guess it is has also become fashion with smaller boards now. I think the whole thing sort of started with modifying pok3r, ducky, ninja type keyboards
  - drewg123 7y ago
    That sounds like exactly what I want. Are you selling a keyboard around it? I don't need the numpad, but after 10+ years of ms natural, I'm used to the remainder of the layout.
    - oposa 7y ago
      Unfortunately not in the foreseeable future. It is a couple of years old at this point, and I haven't really tested it either. I think you would also need palm rests to recreate the experience well enough.
- tobeportable 7y ago
  > Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? It's more about travel distance from your home row. Adding more modifiers or having vim like modes baked in your keyboard help filling the gap.
xupybd 7y ago
That's a well written piece! As someone with a mechanical Keyboard obsession I have this advice: "Walk away now!". This is a expensive hobby the more you get the more you want. The first fix is something cheap a couple hundred dollars. The next will be a little more bespoke on and on it will go. Until spending $500 on a keyboard seems like an everyday thing.

150 points by dopplerac 7y ago

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are even more crooked, and of course there's no wrist support.

doyoulikeworms 7y ago
> Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle that sounds like an amazing product TBH-- does anything like that exist?
- kajecounterhack 7y ago
  No touchpad but: https://shop.keyboard.io https://shop.keyboard.io
  - isoprophlex 7y ago
    That looks incredible: build quality, ergonomics, there's even an Any key But the edge of maple body looks a bit high. Do you own one? How comfortable is it to rest your wrists on it? (I prefer the shallowest possible keyboards myself)
    - lincolnq 7y ago
      I have one of these too. I ended up not using it because I preferred my long-standing kinesis. It was quite comfortable though; my main complaint was with the switches -- I didn't like the Matias switches it ships with (I prefer Cherry Browns). I also felt that I wanted more thumb-keys, but that's obviously a preference I inherited from my longtime Kinesis usage :). If the design appeals to you I do still recommend it despite not preferring it myself. The build quality was great. I don't have any comments in particular about the height, not something I noticed.
    - LukeShu 7y ago
      I have one too. Because the body of the keyboard doesn't cut off where the keys end, and supports so much of your wrist, you don't notice that it's so thick, the "desk surface" is just that much higher.
- rubenfonseca 7y ago
  What about this: https://www.keymouse.com/ https://www.keymouse.com/
- maximilianroos 7y ago
  This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
alpaca128 7y ago
A lot of people build their own ergonomic split keyboards, there are even websites like keeb.io which focus purely on kits for such variants, and open source projects like the ergodox or dactyl keyboards that everyone can 3D print(or otherwise create) and handwire with their own choice of componentes and materials. Of course it's not the majority but a market exists and many of the kits are almost constantly sold out.
- frostburg 7y ago
  I built a Nyquist from keeb.io parts (and zealios 67g switches). It was mostly to learn how to flash QMK to a microcontroller, solder the components etc., but I used it for a few weeks and it was surprisingly comfortable, better than my usual topre novatouch.
  - in_hindsight 7y ago
    How do you find 67g switches? I built quefrency with 67g Zilents and while they are comfortable I wonder if they are a bit too stiff for fingers joints health
    - frostburg 7y ago
      I like them, but I have a somewhat soft typing touch and don't bottom them out (they're harder to bottom out than most switches, too). I don't know if lighter switches (which are likely going to be easier to bottom out) might be better for joints.
zerr 7y ago
Kinesis looks good for data entry and such keyboard-only activities, but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable. Any experiences?
- lincolnq 7y ago
  I have used a kinesis for 12+ years as my main keyboard. I'm not fully sure what you are asking -- I would guess you're referring to the fact that it's harder than usual to type with one hand and mouse with the other, because you have to reach across to the other side of the keyboard? If that's what you're asking, I agree -- but I consider it a good thing :). I found that the kinesis helped me focus on touch-typing more and relying more on keyboard shortcuts to navigate; it's a bit of a learning curve but ultimately worth it for ergonomics and speed.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >but otherwise, when one hand is using a mouse, I don't think it is comfortable Parent did say "and slapping touchpads in the middle".
- aasasd 7y ago
  In case of the browser, I've augmented it with the Vimium add-on. I've gotten so used to touch-typing that I'm annoyed when I have to reach for the mouse, even despite the inherent delay for reading Vimium's label on a link. That's why I want a touchpad in quick reach. And also for the two-finger scroll with its analog sensitivity. This keyboard-reliance has led me to another observation, that web devs don't test keyboard scroll on their sites.
eyeball 7y ago
https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ As soon as the trackpoint modules are complete this will be the dream for me.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  very cool, and also the most 90s looking piece of electronics i've seen in a while
  - brodsky 7y ago
    true! I'm very tempted to finish mine with custom airbrushed patina á la "abandoned soviet cold war bunker" :)
    - eyeball 7y ago
      They sell different color cases. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4/ultimate_nuclear_hacking/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/97hqt4...
      - brodsky 7y ago
        yes, i have the yellow one. it looks awesome, but i'm really longing for some post-apocalyptic touches (think Metro rather than Fallout). don't have an airbrush though, nor do I know how to use one. So this will have to wait...
- nxpnsv 7y ago
  I have one. It’s sweet even without the modules, can always order them later. I consider it one of those few perfect purchases. Only issue in 1/2 year: I thought the cool coiled cable was too short so i bought a straight replacement cable for 5€.
  - brodsky 7y ago
    you can use any old phone cable by the way!
tjoff 7y ago
There are tons and tons of ortholinear diy-boards floating around. The problem with curved boards is manufacturing (for diy) and the pcb. But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. So there are a few curved boards out there as well. Such as https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform/blob/master/R... As for touchpads they kind of suck as an input device (imo), but it would be easy to incorporate an apple device in the above. But people seem to be experimenting more with large ball mouses such as the kensington trackball or something like the point-stick that thinkpads use, where you don't even have to lift your hands of home-row.
- ghaff 7y ago
  I was a big trackball fan for many years (mostly Logitech models). Although I admit I switched away, in part because there was at least a period when I didn't like any of the models available, but also because Apple finally did a trackpad I actively liked rather than barely tolerated.
- oposa 7y ago
  > But 3D printing solved the first problem and they are mostly soldered with wires rather than experimenting with pcbs. It doesn't really. Modern diy culture is ultimately about publishing. That is what puts you on somewhat equal footing with a large entity. What we mostly have with 3d printing is a do-it-for-yourself culture. That is why every institution will have an exclusive maker space, where you will get reprimanded if you use too much machine time. Why people dump things on github without documentation for their resume. And why the hacker news thread on the raspberry pi is about what people are using rather than what they have created. A keyboard is a very basic object. It is almost like the hello world of hardware. Despite this it is very challenging to produce and publish one [0][1], or something like one [2]. But these stories mostly fall of deaf ears as this important part of diy culture has become marginalized. [0] https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-startling-discovery https://blog.keyboard.io/post/181333242149/december-2018-a-s... [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/ [2] http://www.tlalexander.com/business/ http://www.tlalexander.com/business/
TurboHaskal 7y ago
It’s not only the form factor. They’re also obsessed with high resistance switches (going as high as 65 and even 80g activation point) which is sure way to develop RSI. You should aim to go as low as possible but still avoiding accidental activation when resting your fingers on the keyboard. For most people, that means between 30 and 35g. Realforce makes a bunch of them but they’re not held in high regard by the mechanical keyboard community because they don’t feel tactile enough. Let alone the fact that they dare using rubber in the keyboards. Fortunately they seem to be busier building them from scratch and posting the results on Reddit than actually typing.
- Klathmon 7y ago
  I absolutely haven't gotten that feeling from the mechanical keyboard community. They seem pretty accepting of anything, and are often more concerned with finding the right keyboard for what you want. There are jokes and memes that go around, but not many people have issues with any kinds of switches. Some people really prefer the tactile feel, and others really want the super high activation forces. It's a tradeoff, and there are more options now than ever. I have a split ortholinear keyboard with Kailh blue 50cN activation force "clicky" switches, a BDN9 macro pad with Cherry MX White (80cN "clicky" switches), a planck with cherry MX brown 55cN quiet "tactile" switches, and an aging das-keyboard 4 ultimate that I replaced the stock greetech switches with MOD L Linear switches with a 45cN activation weight. I have to say that I thought the lighter activation would be nice, but it was actually MORE stressful for my hands because even though I wouldn't normally accidentally activate the switch by resting my hands, if I moved too quickly or kind of let my fingers relax it would press down enough sometimes to type accidentally, leading to me kind of "hovering" my fingers above the keys all the time. I also missed the tactile feel that I was getting used to on other boards to avoid having to "bottom out" the keys for the most part. I'm not going to say it's worse for everyone, but for me I greatly prefer 50-70cN activation force for typing, and I really like the "heavy" feel of the cherry MX White switches for my macro pad. You may like the lighter force switches. In that case you may want to go for linear switches as they tend to have smaller activation weights. Take a look at the Kalih silver or copper switches, or the cherry MX speed silver if you can find them. They are about as light as mechanical switches come.
- 7y ago
melling 7y ago
It’s disappointing that there’s so little innovation. Surely, we must have learned more about ergonomics in the past half century? The DataHand was a new interesting “keyboard” design in the 1990’s, about 25 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand Btw, Xahlee has a great article on keyboard switches: http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/keyboard_switch_mechanisms.html
- DanBC 7y ago
  There's some innovation but there are also aggressive patent holders who are holding things back. For example, Matius was stopping one-handed keyboards for a while. http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html http://blog.monstuff.com/archives/000021.html There were things like the Frogpad or the HandyKey Twiddler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmzYovAMHE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciQVBNHrKKA
  - oposa 7y ago
    It is also, like many things in hardware, a software problem. The purpose of a keyboard is to interact with software. And that software is biased towards certain layouts. It is hard to change the layout too much without quickly becoming a niche product. Add to that the barrier to entry to making a hardware product is still quite high, and relatively costly.
- absorber 7y ago
  I tried to see if I could make a keyboard with slightly larger keys for my upcoming live music performances and I was thoroughly disappointed: https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24/rmechanicalkeyboards_ask_any_question_get_an/e61riay/?context=3 https://old.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9g0e24...
solatic 7y ago
No touchpad, but: https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard
EL_Loco 7y ago
The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out in front of you, hands 12 to 14 inches apart. I bet most of human fine movement tasks were done with the hands close together (sewing for example). The position with your hands extended and 12 inches apart actually puts your elbows in a quite uncomfortable position, and I wouldn't be surprised if that in itself would lead to some injuries in that area (elbow). As for the ortholinear key designs, that's not very ergonomic either. Make a fist with your hands. Now open your fingers. Do they open in a parallel line pattern like the orthogonal keyboards? No, they don't. They spread out, in a star-like pattern. If the keys were laid out similar to that pattern then, yes, I might concede a benefit there. But these two regular complaints about traditional keyboards while hailing split and orthogonal keybords as well thought out ergonomic solutions seem more like a fad to me. By the way, I don't think the traditional typewriter-like keyboards are great, far from it. I do think, though, that our hands are pretty resilient, but not infinitely resilient. Too much repetitive work, insufficient rest, personal biomechanics, can all eventually lead to injuries, on all these types of keyboards. PS-> Who came up with calling it 'ortholinear'?
- UkiahSmith 7y ago
  I have a split keyboard, and I think the real benefit is not that I can rotate my wrists, but that it allows me to pull my shoulder blades closer together. I sit more upright and have less back pain.
  - ianhowson 7y ago
    This. I also enjoy being able to move the two halves around through the day, shifting the muscular load around. It makes it easy to accommodate different seating, standing and lying positions. (I never figured out, despite 'ergonomics training', how I was supposed to hold my extended hands and arms upright for hours per day without shoulder and neck pain.)
tfolbrecht 7y ago
Thank God our arms have joints in three places allowing us to position them arbitrarily. Once you type one handed or use a mouse your ergonomic keyboard is less comfortable than the traditional geometry.
mietek 7y ago
Check out this 3D-printed recreation of a DataHand. https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard
maximilianroos 7y ago
This is my Kinesis with a touchpad in the middle - extremely easy to DIY: https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609 https://twitter.com/max_sixty/status/1144236070369988609
nixpulvis 7y ago
Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/ http://www.altkeyboards.com/ The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false. I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys feel. Switching even from my thinkpad to friends butterfly MacBooks makes typing significantly harder for me. As far as RSI is concerned, there was a time when I used to play WoW and I thought I might have a problem with this, but between small hand stretches and maybe just luck, I don't have these problems anymore. Maybe they'll come back as I continue to get older. Here's a random reddit thread where random people seem to think posture and technique avoids RSI. I'm tempted to agree. https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists_get_rsi/ https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comments/34y4x4/do_pianists... And some good advice http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-piano-practice-related-hand-injuries-and-muscle-pain/ http://www.pianocareer.com/piano-practice/how-to-deal-with-p...
- _ph_ 7y ago
  If you compare a piano with a standard keyboard, there are a lot of differences. The problem with the standard keyboard is, that for touch-typing, the hands need to be angled very unnaturally, as they have to be close together, yet lined up in an almost parallel position. The only way to achive that is to flex your wrists, and that is where a lot of stress originates from. A piano is very wide, and you often have you hands spaced very far from each other. This reduces a lot of stress. Also, you don't have your fingers basically tied to the same positions, but during the play, the wrists change position a lot, so there is no static pressure into a single unnatural position. The active movement should be beneficial to your wrists too. Finally, the keys are pretty large, giving more possible hand positions to hit them.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    The piano keyboard is pretty poorly designed from a pure user interface standpoint; its design is mostly dictated by the direct mechanical connection to a big bunch of parallel strings. Tons of pianists get RSI, which can seriously impact their careers. It is important for serious musicians to figure out a piano technique which does not require putting too much static load on any of the joints. An improved piano keyboard could help quite a bit, but it’s pretty hard to change piano keyboard layouts, since there are several centuries of repertoire built up around the current one, and pianos are very large, expensive, and difficult to modify.
jandeboevrie 7y ago
Here's my take on five years of split keyboards: https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_review_including_the_ErgoDox_EZ_Matias_Ergo_Pro_and_Kinesis_Freestyle_2.html https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_re...
Phrodo_00 7y ago
Because not a lot of people prefer touchpads over mice. I'd very much prefer a compact keyboard + comfortable mouse to that setup (and given the keyboards a lot of people are building, I'm not alone)
userbinator 7y ago
Why do you think that the keyboard is the problem, and not the indoctrination of "this is the right way to type and posture" leading to further stress? In fact, in my admittedly small sample of others I know who do have problems with their wrists, they were all ones who tried very hard to rigidly conform to the "standard" posture and move only the fingers of the hands instead of the whole arm. They were also people who hit the keys much harder than necessary. I use a standard flat QWERTY keyboard and I can type for hours at 150+ WPM with no problem, but I've had comments from some of those people above that I'm not doing it right... when they're the ones who are getting pains in their wrists, not me... If you try to keep your hands parallel to the keyboard no matter what, you are going to stress your wrists. Let them approach at whatever angle feels comfortable, and relax. That also happens to be the "trick" to typing faster too --- if you expend effort on trying to be "strict" about posture rather than just hitting the keys in whatever you feel to be the most comfortable way, you'll tire quickly, type slower, and stress your joints more. This is good: https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo160400673/55226294-white-laptop-as-seen-from-above-with-hands-typing-on-keyboard-.jpg?ver=6 https://us.123rf.com/450wm/pxhidalgo/pxhidalgo1604/pxhidalgo... This is not: http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_position.jpg http://help.nchsoftware.com/help/en/keyblaze/win/keybd_hand_... (My resting position is more like awef and jio;)
- uncletaco 7y ago
  How old are you, if you don't mind sharing?
  - userbinator 7y ago
    Middle-aged, and have been typing for several decades.
amatecha 7y ago
People are most definitely making unique form factors like that: https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-72157694155511464/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/41021237041/in/album-... https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-72157699494181362/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/amatecha/31638862398/in/album-...
seniorsassycat 7y ago
I just finished building my first design. It doesn't include a trackpad but it has curved keys like the kinesis, a thumb cluster that is better then the ergo dox or kinesis (but not perfect). People are building crazy custom keyboards. https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf https://imgur.com/a/hNcGCwf My next build will be more ambitious. I want to include a USB hub, a raspberry pi zero, a small screen, and a track{pad,point,ball}.

thrwaway442 7y ago

Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not? A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before. I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is insane. I easily felt when I was making a mistake, I had confidence in what I was typing. (because of each little click.) But it was also really loud. Is that necessary? Is it part of what made me fast and accurate? The obvious way to test this which would not change the feel of the keyboard at all, would be to put in foam earbuds and then see if my typing rate or accuracy drops when I can't hear the keyboard. Unfortunately I didn't have any with me so I didn't try it. Can someone who uses a mechanical keyboard comment on whether the audible noise from it is part of the typing loop? if someone here has the inclination and a mechanical keyboard and happens to have hearing protection with them could you try it and tell me whether your typing rate or accuracy drops if you can't hear the keyboard? (if you do an online typing test with strong hearing protection in.) If it does not, then why aren't there any absolutely silent keyboards that just have the feel (tactile feedback) but without any loud click? I plain can't decide if this clickety-clack noise is part of the feedback loop the typist uses or not. My family member's keyboard was incredibly loud. -- [1] I'm being very literal so just to show you, on my own keyboard now I took a screenshot 15 seconds into a test, before I made any mistakes: https://imgur.com/a/eOejvsu https://imgur.com/a/eOejvsu - this was really hard for me to do now. On my own keyboard I can average 100 wpm for 60 seconds but it's really hard: https://imgur.com/a/tClgZR4 https://imgur.com/a/tClgZR4

atoav 7y ago
I have a keyboard with silent black MX switches and I never felt any need for clickyness. The cool thing about these linear switches (Black, Red, Silver, Grey) is that you can type extremely silent if you like to, by just hovering the keys or you can type loudly by bottoming them out (if somebody was wrong on the internet or so). When I type silently it is less loud than my lenovo notebook keyboard. For me the click was never really necessary — the resistance of the spring is already enough. Maybe it is because I play guitar, bass and piano.

mruts 7y ago

I’ve wanted to make a keyboard, but I’m not sure it’s possible to make something materially better than the kinesis advantage. I switched to it 10 years after my hands would feel numb after typing. I think I might have some problem other people don’t, but even for normal people, I find it hard to believe that a kinesis wouldn’t be better for them as well. I’ve seen some split diy keyboards, but none of them have the great concave wells kinesis does. Also the kinesis has macros, key remapping, and easy switching between Dvorak and QWERTY. Being able to type your password with one button is super cool!

jakobegger 7y ago
> Being able to type your password with one button is super cool! Do you really have a button on your keyboard mapped to type your password? If that's the case, I'm horrified. But I secretely wish I had a button like that too...
- mruts 7y ago
  I have one for my work account. Whenever I have to update it I just overwrite the macro. I figure if it gets compromised they won't think it's my fault and I won't face any consequences :p
- mythrwy 7y ago
  You can have exactly that if you set your password to "a"!
erikerikson 7y ago
I appreciated a lot about the one I got but had a hard time dealing with the increased friction introduced for non-alphanumeric keys I use regularly for programming.
bingerman 7y ago
Dactyl https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard is split and curved. Been thinking about building one, though I'd probably use wood as casing material and I know it will be a lot of work, so it may or may not materialize...

megous 7y ago

I wonder if this is the audiophile equivalent of computer enthusiasm. I mean, like audiophiles buying gold cables for 10x the price and no reason, and using 20's tech (vacuum tubes) in their amps, selecting individual tubes and all that... So here the keyboard enthusiasts select their switches, key curvatures, materials, etc. and the result might just be some placebo feel good improvement and more noise for everyone else.

DennisP 7y ago
Not all mechs are noisy. Personally I was having significant pain in my finger joints until I switched to mechs with (fairly quiet) Cherry Brown and Red switches, and trained myself to type mostly without bottoming out the keys.
the_pwner224 7y ago
There are very clearly noticeable differences between the different keyswitches, and also between different shapes of keycaps. And not just in mechanical keyboards. I have used a mass-manufactured red (linear quiet) keyboard, a custom split blue (tactile loud/clicky) mechanical keyboards, the keyboard on my current XPS 15, and many years ago a MSI gaming laptop with a SteelSeries-made rubber dome keyboard. I realize these are audiophile terms, but there is a huge difference in how each keyboard feels and how satisfying it is to type on them. It's not just like having slightly 'cripser' etc. audio - the differences are extremely obvious. The red keyboard sucks for typing; I didn't realize how much until I switched to the blue. They offer no feedback and my WPM and error rate is much higher/lower on the reds. The blues have very solid feedback and feel nice to type on, the sound is also beautiful. The keyboard on the XPS 15 sucks, it's like typing on a piece of styrofoam - but better still than the new MacBook keybaords, which feel like like typing on a piece of wood. The MSI laptop had a very deep keyboard (almost as much key travel as a mechanical one) and the keys were heavy. The pressure required to push them down felt nice, and they bottomed out in a very satisfying way. I only use the MSI laptop a few times a year but I always look forward to typing on it. If you only drove 4 door sedans (normal rubber domes) you would think that people are crazy for wanting to get their own customized cars in different form factors, but if you drove a sedan and a SUV and a pickup truck and a motorcycle you would know that it's very much not just a 'placebo feel good' difference. On the other hand if you go to /r/mechanicalkeyboards you'll find weirdos spending $200 on keycaps and cases and $50 on USB cables, or people that collect dozens of keyboards, or people that use 10x3 keyboards (letters + space, no numbers ctrl alt etc.). Those people are the audiophile-type ones. I just have a nice $120 keyboard which I love to use and which will last a decade or more. You can find audiophile-type stuff for really every category of purchaseable products. I have a beautiful metal $15 fountain pen (Pilot Metropolitan); on /r/fountainpens you'll find weirdos spending $100 on an ugly octagonal pen made with transparent plastic. Here's a video on laundry machine collectors who bring dirty clothes to meets and listen/watch to the laundry machines go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U Also, to some people the sound is really pleasing. You may want to try out Bucklespring, which plays the sounds of an old IBM buckling-spring keyboard through your computer speakers, and you might realize why so many people like clicky keyboards. When I'm not using headphones I can hear the blues, when I am wearing headphones the blue switches are muffled and their sound mixes with the sound of Bucklespring. When I take the laptop outside and I'm alone I turn up the speakers a bit; the buckling spring keyboard on its own sounds amazingly good, and helps reduce the type-on-wood feeling of laptop keyboards. https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring https://github.com/zevv/bucklespring

Animats 7y ago

As someone who restores old Teletype machines, I don't consider little key units with clickers in them to be a "mechanical keyboard". On a real mechanical keyboard, like a Teletype or an IBM Selectric, you cannot push two keys at once. The mechanism resists that.

garbre 7y ago

How many of these tiny keyboards need to ship before linux makes the magic sysrq key remappable?

cogburnd02 7y ago
Well, you can do it; you just have to patch your kernel. I googled 'linux remap sysrq'.
- garbre 7y ago
  Everything is possible if you patch your kernel...

drewg123 7y ago

What I want is a non-radical, normal sized, ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I basically want an MS natural keyboard with a decent feel. Does such a thing exist? Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? They don't want to spend the money for more switches? I thought I found something "close enough" in this split mechanical keyboard (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FK74QY5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FK74QY5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...). But it is "tiny" and doesn't have normal function keys, etc. After a while its lack of keys drove me crazy and I went back to my old mushy MS Natural.

oposa 7y ago
> Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? They don't want to spend the money for more switches? Yes, to some extent at least. But maybe more the pcb, plate, case etc. I have a pcb for a ms natural style keyboard (without the numpad) and the effective size is 40x15 cm (16x6 inches). Not that expensive to get in China, but I guess it is has also become fashion with smaller boards now. I think the whole thing sort of started with modifying pok3r, ducky, ninja type keyboards
- drewg123 7y ago
  That sounds like exactly what I want. Are you selling a keyboard around it? I don't need the numpad, but after 10+ years of ms natural, I'm used to the remainder of the layout.
  - oposa 7y ago
    Unfortunately not in the foreseeable future. It is a couple of years old at this point, and I haven't really tested it either. I think you would also need palm rests to recreate the experience well enough.
tobeportable 7y ago
> Why are so many mechanical keyboards tiny? It's more about travel distance from your home row. Adding more modifiers or having vim like modes baked in your keyboard help filling the gap.

xupybd 7y ago

That's a well written piece! As someone with a mechanical Keyboard obsession I have this advice: "Walk away now!". This is a expensive hobby the more you get the more you want. The first fix is something cheap a couple hundred dollars. The next will be a little more bespoke on and on it will go. Until spending $500 on a keyboard seems like an everyday thing.