8 ms·

Has anyone done an estimate to how much it would cost to roll out an actual ID system instead of continuing to use SSNs? Perhaps this unrelated $5BN can be used

by Jach 7y ago

Has anyone done an estimate to how much it would cost to roll out an actual ID system instead of continuing to use SSNs? Perhaps this unrelated $5BN can be used towards it. /s

dymk 7y ago
It's not a matter of money cost. Americans are (in some ways rationally, in most irrationally) terrified of a national ID.
- r00fus 7y ago
  Who's ginning up that terror? Where there's an irrational fear, there's usually a vested interest involved.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Comparing US society to the USSR. The US wanted to not ever become a "papers please" society, and tried to make it impossible to become one. Some of this changed after 9/11, but the underlying mentality is still somewhat there.
dahfizz 7y ago
Unfortunately I don't see something like that ever passing America. Nobody supports a national ID.
- dewyatt 7y ago
  Real ID gets us much closer to having a national ID. Give it time.
  - r00fus 7y ago
    How? It's specifically not a national ID, just a set of standards for state issued IDs. It gets us closer in the sense that climbing a mountain gets one closer to the moon.
- Jach 7y ago
  I support a national ID... But for people who don't, what is the functional difference between a SSN today and a national ID, apart from SSNs being broken for such a purpose? It still gets asked for very broadly (not just for credit-related things... let alone for social security related things) and people very easily give them up. One might also ask the same question when IDs for different purposes are used -- why not a fuss over driver's licenses and passports, which are context-dependent IDs? We can always call it something else. "National signature card". The ideal implementation would be something like Estonia's ID card.
  - darkpuma 7y ago
    Drivers licenses are already contentious in some respects, and a National ID is likely to be contentious in those same respects. Namely, if you create one, is it then acceptable to require voters to present it before allowing them to vote? Partisan disagreement over this issue is likely to stall progress.
    - tzs 7y ago
      I'm not sure it would remain a partisan issue if a national ID were used, assuming that there were also good mechanisms in place to make sure everyone can easily get their ID card for free. The reasons attempts to require voter ID at polling places is currently a partisan issue include: 1. The level of voter fraud is very low, and what little there is almost always would not be prevented by voter ID at the polling place. It usually takes place by absentee ballots, or is based on registering people to vote who should not be eligible (which can be addressed someone by ID requirement--but at registration, not at the polls). 2. When deciding what forms of ID are acceptable, there has been a remarkable correlation between whether a given form is allowed, and whether or not a significantly larger fraction of white voters have that form of ID than do black or Hispanic voters. 3. The same people that pass these voter ID laws have also, in many states, cut the budgets of the state agencies that issue IDs, generally be closing offices that can issue IDs and reducing the hours of those that remain. The closures have tended to be of offices that serve largely black or Hispanic populations, and the cutbacks in hours of the remaining offices have tended to eliminate weekend and evening service. I've read several stories about people who to get an ID had to take a two hour bus ride to reach one of the remaining offices, and had to take a day off work to do it, which was quite a hardship for them. In short, the current push for voter ID has almost nothing to do with insuring the integrity of the election process. It's about trying to make it harder for to vote for groups of voters that have historically voted against the party that is pushing for voter ID laws. If we had a national ID, issued by the Federal government rather than state governments, with a strong commitment to make sure everyone who was eligible received their card, and a Federal law that said any state voter ID check must accept the national ID card, it could probably be done in a way that avoids #2 and #3.
- henryfjordan 7y ago
  I already have a national ID, it's called my social security card. I need it to open a bank account or get a job or get a realID so I can fly. I'd much rather have something more secure than a literal piece of card printed decades ago.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    I'd much rather have something more secure than a literal piece of card printed decades ago. Considering how there seems to be a major data breach every week, I don't think we've come up with a "secure" alternative to that little piece of card yet.
    - Shelnutt2 7y ago
      There is also the fact that the social security card is a flimsy piece of paper, not plastic or other more durable material. Even just getting social security cards on plastic would be an improvement for something you are expected to keep and present for your entire life.
  - swebs 7y ago
    Passport? State ID?
paulddraper 7y ago
What does "actual ID system" mean? SSN is literally a national ID system. Assigned at birth/immigration/residency. Used by national government to pay benefits, track Medicare membership, receive taxes, etc. If you're talking about adding photos and fingerprints and stuff to SSN or equivalent...that's not a cost thing. That's 100% a privacy thing.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Actually, the SSN is an account number, solely intended for tracking money paid into and paid out of an account. It isn't meant for identification, and the method it's used for identification is terrible. (Largely: If you know the number, you are identified.) It's treated like a secret, but as a 9-digit number you give to dozens of organizations in your life which follows a predictable and partially guessable pattern, it is an absolutely terrible secret. Absolutely good explainer video about how this travesty took place historically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus
  - paulddraper 7y ago
    SSN is absolutely an identifier. It's like given name & surname (also identifiers), but actually unique. The problem is that SSN is not only an identifier, it's also the means of authentication, which is "the process or action of verifying an identity." --- To draw an analogy, username is an identifier. Password, SSH key exchange, etc. are mean of authentication, i.e. the process of verifying a username identifies the user. SSN is both a username and a password; it needs to be one or the other.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Assigned at birth/immigration/residency A common misperception. A SSN is not assigned at birth. A child doesn't have to have a SSN unless the parents want to use him as a tax deduction. I didn't get mine until I was 17 and needed one to get a driver's license and passport.
  - paulddraper 7y ago

by Jach 7y ago

Has anyone done an estimate to how much it would cost to roll out an actual ID system instead of continuing to use SSNs? Perhaps this unrelated $5BN can be used towards it. /s

dymk 7y ago

It's not a matter of money cost. Americans are (in some ways rationally, in most irrationally) terrified of a national ID.

r00fus 7y ago
Who's ginning up that terror? Where there's an irrational fear, there's usually a vested interest involved.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Comparing US society to the USSR. The US wanted to not ever become a "papers please" society, and tried to make it impossible to become one. Some of this changed after 9/11, but the underlying mentality is still somewhat there.

dahfizz 7y ago

Unfortunately I don't see something like that ever passing America. Nobody supports a national ID.

dewyatt 7y ago
Real ID gets us much closer to having a national ID. Give it time.
- r00fus 7y ago
  How? It's specifically not a national ID, just a set of standards for state issued IDs. It gets us closer in the sense that climbing a mountain gets one closer to the moon.
Jach 7y ago
I support a national ID... But for people who don't, what is the functional difference between a SSN today and a national ID, apart from SSNs being broken for such a purpose? It still gets asked for very broadly (not just for credit-related things... let alone for social security related things) and people very easily give them up. One might also ask the same question when IDs for different purposes are used -- why not a fuss over driver's licenses and passports, which are context-dependent IDs? We can always call it something else. "National signature card". The ideal implementation would be something like Estonia's ID card.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  Drivers licenses are already contentious in some respects, and a National ID is likely to be contentious in those same respects. Namely, if you create one, is it then acceptable to require voters to present it before allowing them to vote? Partisan disagreement over this issue is likely to stall progress.
  - tzs 7y ago
    I'm not sure it would remain a partisan issue if a national ID were used, assuming that there were also good mechanisms in place to make sure everyone can easily get their ID card for free. The reasons attempts to require voter ID at polling places is currently a partisan issue include: 1. The level of voter fraud is very low, and what little there is almost always would not be prevented by voter ID at the polling place. It usually takes place by absentee ballots, or is based on registering people to vote who should not be eligible (which can be addressed someone by ID requirement--but at registration, not at the polls). 2. When deciding what forms of ID are acceptable, there has been a remarkable correlation between whether a given form is allowed, and whether or not a significantly larger fraction of white voters have that form of ID than do black or Hispanic voters. 3. The same people that pass these voter ID laws have also, in many states, cut the budgets of the state agencies that issue IDs, generally be closing offices that can issue IDs and reducing the hours of those that remain. The closures have tended to be of offices that serve largely black or Hispanic populations, and the cutbacks in hours of the remaining offices have tended to eliminate weekend and evening service. I've read several stories about people who to get an ID had to take a two hour bus ride to reach one of the remaining offices, and had to take a day off work to do it, which was quite a hardship for them. In short, the current push for voter ID has almost nothing to do with insuring the integrity of the election process. It's about trying to make it harder for to vote for groups of voters that have historically voted against the party that is pushing for voter ID laws. If we had a national ID, issued by the Federal government rather than state governments, with a strong commitment to make sure everyone who was eligible received their card, and a Federal law that said any state voter ID check must accept the national ID card, it could probably be done in a way that avoids #2 and #3.
henryfjordan 7y ago
I already have a national ID, it's called my social security card. I need it to open a bank account or get a job or get a realID so I can fly. I'd much rather have something more secure than a literal piece of card printed decades ago.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I'd much rather have something more secure than a literal piece of card printed decades ago. Considering how there seems to be a major data breach every week, I don't think we've come up with a "secure" alternative to that little piece of card yet.
  - Shelnutt2 7y ago
    There is also the fact that the social security card is a flimsy piece of paper, not plastic or other more durable material. Even just getting social security cards on plastic would be an improvement for something you are expected to keep and present for your entire life.
- swebs 7y ago
  Passport? State ID?

paulddraper 7y ago

What does "actual ID system" mean? SSN is literally a national ID system. Assigned at birth/immigration/residency. Used by national government to pay benefits, track Medicare membership, receive taxes, etc. If you're talking about adding photos and fingerprints and stuff to SSN or equivalent...that's not a cost thing. That's 100% a privacy thing.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Actually, the SSN is an account number, solely intended for tracking money paid into and paid out of an account. It isn't meant for identification, and the method it's used for identification is terrible. (Largely: If you know the number, you are identified.) It's treated like a secret, but as a 9-digit number you give to dozens of organizations in your life which follows a predictable and partially guessable pattern, it is an absolutely terrible secret. Absolutely good explainer video about how this travesty took place historically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erp8IAUouus
- paulddraper 7y ago
  SSN is absolutely an identifier. It's like given name & surname (also identifiers), but actually unique. The problem is that SSN is not only an identifier, it's also the means of authentication, which is "the process or action of verifying an identity." --- To draw an analogy, username is an identifier. Password, SSH key exchange, etc. are mean of authentication, i.e. the process of verifying a username identifies the user. SSN is both a username and a password; it needs to be one or the other.
reaperducer 7y ago
Assigned at birth/immigration/residency A common misperception. A SSN is not assigned at birth. A child doesn't have to have a SSN unless the parents want to use him as a tax deduction. I didn't get mine until I was 17 and needed one to get a driver's license and passport.
- paulddraper 7y ago