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Great and all, but I'll never purchase an EV if I can help it. They are garbage, in my opinion. They feel like cheap toys, like go karts. I've driven and ridden

Great and all, but I'll never purchase an EV if I can help it. They are garbage, in my opinion. They feel like cheap toys, like go karts. I've driven and ridden in Teslas and, aside from the acceleration, there's nothing special about it. Besides, as a motorcycle rider, even the Tesla Model 3 0-60 isn't anything magical. It's...mundane to riders (who aren't on Harleys). The P100D ludicrous mode, however, is objectively insane. Call me a luddite, but I want to shift gears. I want an I6 or V8 ICE that puts out gratuitous amounts of power and, yes, NOISE. I want sharp steering feedback and beefy front rotors and stiff, aggressive suspension. I don't want a damn Chevy Bolt, I want a real freaking sports car with all the money poured into the performance, and none into comfort. There are tons of buyers like me, too. SoCal has a huuuge car culture of guys who buy old toyotas, porsches old and new, Rx7s, miatas, BRZs and WRK STIs, old Lancer Evos. Tons of us LIKE driving. Tons of us LIKE offensively loud engines. Tons of us LIKE manually shifting. What about us? What happens when other people finally surrender their autonomy to shitty self-driving EVs? What Ford should really do is build a mid/rear engined mustang-based sport coupe. Enough of the autonomous vehicle nonsense. It's over a decade away anyway. Let the people who like driving, drive!

bluGill 7y ago
There are tons of you, but you are still a small minority.
ISL 7y ago
Nobody says car buyers of the future have to buy an EV. This transition is not unlike the shift from film cameras to digital imaging. Film is far from dead, but the economies of scale, particularly in film-camera manufacturing have disappeared. The romance of the photographic darkroom is still alive and well. If self-driving cars live up to the hype, in the distant future, insurance companies may charge more to insure human drivers, and carbon taxes may make ICEs slightly more expensive to operate, but otherwise, it is an open road. From a technical perspective, nothing about EV design forbids tight suspension, responsive steering, and quick acceleration/braking. Indeed, stripping all the comfort from a car will tend to make it lighter, and electronic control is likely to permit quicker response times all around. The only thing that an EV cannot deliver is the noise of an open pipe (without the silliness of a retrofitted speaker). I backcountry ski a lot, in areas shared with snowmobilers who love the 'BRAAP' of a barely-muffled two-stroke. I keep hoping for a competent electric snowmobile, not just for the quiet, but also so snowmobilers might glimpse the life-changing experience of being immersed in both deep powder and silence at thirty miles an hour. Run silent, run deep. (and, well, when an F/A-18's afterburner rips the sky in half, elate, 'cause that's rad, too.)
- wcarron 7y ago
  > Nobody says car buyers of the future have to buy an EV. With increasingly stringnent emissions controls, it is only a matter of time until ICEs will not be manufactured. > From a technical perspective, nothing about EV design forbids tight suspension, responsive steering, and quick acceleration/braking. Braking, yes. The absolutely absurd weight of EV batteries makes it hard to match braking performance of the inherently lighter ICE platform. A Tesla Model S is almost 5k lbs! That's 500 lbs more than the fat boat we call a Dodge Challenger! Compare that to a porsche 718/911. > electronic control is likely to permit quicker response times all around. Throttle-by-wire is already present in many ICE vehicles and does just that already. My KTM 790 duke has it, and various throttle mappings. There is little to want in quick response times in performance ICE vehicles. > The only thing that an EV cannot deliver is the noise of an open pipe That and shifting. Which is the whole point. People like me sometimes buy cars specifically for the soundtrack. a BMW M4 is faster than a Ford Shelby GT350 R. But the GT350R sounds worlds better, and for that reason alone, I'd buy it over the M4. That is the crux of the issue. We want noise, and lots of it; we want shifting; and FFS, we want the ability to work on our vehicles: Something you can't really do with an EV.
  - ISL 7y ago
    Fair 'nuff -- thanks for the reply!
    - wcarron 7y ago
      Any time, and thank you for yours.
thecount122195 7y ago
I'm a car guy myself I've got a '75 F-100 its big its loud and sucks down gas like its going out of style (which it totally is) but we are definitely a minority. I drive an old truck because of the exact reason you listed modern cars feel like cheap use up and throw away appliances, you cant service them yourself because they all require proprietary dealer scan tools. But for everyone of us there are dozens of Karen in HR who just wants to go to work and the store and have comfortable, easy unoffensive driving experience and that's who car companies target. Car companies don't care about enthusiasts except for maybe a few specialty models because they don't make them their money. Hell Ford makes more profit from extending credit to people than actually selling the cars. Word of advice I've been giving to my car buddies is grab whatever car/bike you want at this point and hold on to it like grim death cause the used car markets going to go nowhere but up especially for pre OBD cars as more get junked and the cars made with planned obsolescence cant be really resold because they need $5k of sensors replaced, gas might be going away in the future but we can embrace things like Ethanol (objectively a better fuel than gas anyways and carbon neutral) and keep them driving well into the future.
strig 7y ago
Great and all, but I'll never purchase an automobile if I can help it. They are garbage, in my opinion. They feel like cheap toys, like kids' wagons. I've driven and ridden in horseless carriages and, aside from the acceleration, there's nothing special about it. Besides, as a horse rider, even the Ford Model T 0-60 isn't anything magical. It's...mundane to riders (who aren't on donkeys). The Bugatti Type 13, however, is objectively insane. Call me a luddite, but I want to feed and care for my animals. I want an 6 or 8 horse team that puts out gratuitous amounts of power and, yes, NOISE. I want sharp steering feedback and beefy leg muscles and stiff, aggressive saddles. I don't want a damn horseless carriage, I want a real freaking racing horse with all the money poured into the performance, and none into comfort. There are tons of buyers like me, too. SoCal has a huuuge horse culture of guys who buy old stallions, mares old and new, donkeys, oxen teams, carriages, carts. Tons of us LIKE riding. Tons of us LIKE offensively smelly animals. Tons of us LIKE manually commanding our animal to move. What about us? What happens when other people finally surrender their autonomy to shitty oil powered machines? What Ford should really do is build a mid/rear saddled mustang-based sport carriage. Enough of the gasoline automobile nonsense. It's over a decade away anyway. Let the people who like riding, ride!
- wcarron 7y ago
  > Your entire post I said "call me a luddite". You could've just written "You're a luddite." and saved yourself the trouble. I stopped reading your low-effort comment after the 3rd sentence.
Sohcahtoa82 7y ago
> even the Tesla Model 3 0-60 isn't anything magical. It's...mundane to riders (who aren't on Harleys). The P100D ludicrous mode, however, is objectively insane. Clearly you weren't in the Model 3 Performance. While not quick as fast as the P100DL's 2.4 second 0-60 time, it still does it in 3.2 seconds, which is only a hair off from the 565 horsepower Nissan GT-R. > ...NOISE...offensively loud engines... See, I actually prefer the quiet of an EV for one reason: When I flex the acceleration of an EV, I like the stealth. Specifically, I like that it doesn't announce to every cop within a 1 mile radius that I'm gunning it. Also, only other car guys are impressed by your noise. Everyone else rolls their eyes, especially when it's some sub-200 horsepower shitbox that isn't even flooring it. There are too many car enthusiasts that delete their muffler and then talk about how good their car sounds because they equate simply being loud with being good. Yeah, I currently drive a Subaru BRZ. I love its handling, and shifting the gears is fun, but my next car is going to be a performance EV. Fuel economy plays a part in my choice. I considered a Nissan GT-R for my next car, but I'm only going to own 1 car, and I don't want to have something that gets 20 mpg as my daily driver.
- wcarron 7y ago
  > While not quick as fast as the P100DL's 2.4 second 0-60 time, it still does it in 3.2 seconds Not impressive. My $10,500 KTM 790 Duke does 3.1s 0-60mph. Nowhere close to the fastest bike, at only 100ish horsepower. Literbikes with 200+ horsepower do low 2's, all at around $20k. > Everyone else rolls their eyes, especially when it's some sub-200 horsepower shitbox that isn't even flooring it Sure. Everyone thinks the honda lawnmower drivers are lame, including most every other car guy. But who was talking about shitboxes? I was talking about real performance cars (e.g. Shelby GT350R, Camaro ZL1, Corvette ZR1, BMW M cars (M4 not included - doesn't sound good), AMGs, Porsche 911, etc.) > . I considered a Nissan GT-R for my next car, but I'm only going to own 1 car, and I don't want to have something that gets 20 mpg as my daily driver. 1. If you can afford a GT-R, why's fuel economy a sticking point? Fuel cost is miniscule compared to the cost of the car/insurance. I get not having to fuel up as often, but filling up a gas tank is an order of magnitude (or 2) faster than charging an EV. Seems like a moot point. 2. Performance EV? Soooo, a Tesla S/X P100D? There aren't even any other worthwhile EV competitors. Audi e-Tron isn't fast. Jaguar i-Pace isn't fast. Chevy Bolt and Hyundia Kona - Same slow story.
hector_vasquez 7y ago
A lot of folks said the same thing about their horses and buggies. 20 years from now, people will roll their eyes at the view that electric vehicles are inferior to gas guzzlers. You'll come around.

bluGill 7y ago

There are tons of you, but you are still a small minority.

ISL 7y ago

Nobody says car buyers of the future have to buy an EV. This transition is not unlike the shift from film cameras to digital imaging. Film is far from dead, but the economies of scale, particularly in film-camera manufacturing have disappeared. The romance of the photographic darkroom is still alive and well. If self-driving cars live up to the hype, in the distant future, insurance companies may charge more to insure human drivers, and carbon taxes may make ICEs slightly more expensive to operate, but otherwise, it is an open road. From a technical perspective, nothing about EV design forbids tight suspension, responsive steering, and quick acceleration/braking. Indeed, stripping all the comfort from a car will tend to make it lighter, and electronic control is likely to permit quicker response times all around. The only thing that an EV cannot deliver is the noise of an open pipe (without the silliness of a retrofitted speaker). I backcountry ski a lot, in areas shared with snowmobilers who love the 'BRAAP' of a barely-muffled two-stroke. I keep hoping for a competent electric snowmobile, not just for the quiet, but also so snowmobilers might glimpse the life-changing experience of being immersed in both deep powder and silence at thirty miles an hour. Run silent, run deep. (and, well, when an F/A-18's afterburner rips the sky in half, elate, 'cause that's rad, too.)

wcarron 7y ago
> Nobody says car buyers of the future have to buy an EV. With increasingly stringnent emissions controls, it is only a matter of time until ICEs will not be manufactured. > From a technical perspective, nothing about EV design forbids tight suspension, responsive steering, and quick acceleration/braking. Braking, yes. The absolutely absurd weight of EV batteries makes it hard to match braking performance of the inherently lighter ICE platform. A Tesla Model S is almost 5k lbs! That's 500 lbs more than the fat boat we call a Dodge Challenger! Compare that to a porsche 718/911. > electronic control is likely to permit quicker response times all around. Throttle-by-wire is already present in many ICE vehicles and does just that already. My KTM 790 duke has it, and various throttle mappings. There is little to want in quick response times in performance ICE vehicles. > The only thing that an EV cannot deliver is the noise of an open pipe That and shifting. Which is the whole point. People like me sometimes buy cars specifically for the soundtrack. a BMW M4 is faster than a Ford Shelby GT350 R. But the GT350R sounds worlds better, and for that reason alone, I'd buy it over the M4. That is the crux of the issue. We want noise, and lots of it; we want shifting; and FFS, we want the ability to work on our vehicles: Something you can't really do with an EV.
- ISL 7y ago
  Fair 'nuff -- thanks for the reply!
  - wcarron 7y ago
    Any time, and thank you for yours.

thecount122195 7y ago

I'm a car guy myself I've got a '75 F-100 its big its loud and sucks down gas like its going out of style (which it totally is) but we are definitely a minority. I drive an old truck because of the exact reason you listed modern cars feel like cheap use up and throw away appliances, you cant service them yourself because they all require proprietary dealer scan tools. But for everyone of us there are dozens of Karen in HR who just wants to go to work and the store and have comfortable, easy unoffensive driving experience and that's who car companies target. Car companies don't care about enthusiasts except for maybe a few specialty models because they don't make them their money. Hell Ford makes more profit from extending credit to people than actually selling the cars. Word of advice I've been giving to my car buddies is grab whatever car/bike you want at this point and hold on to it like grim death cause the used car markets going to go nowhere but up especially for pre OBD cars as more get junked and the cars made with planned obsolescence cant be really resold because they need $5k of sensors replaced, gas might be going away in the future but we can embrace things like Ethanol (objectively a better fuel than gas anyways and carbon neutral) and keep them driving well into the future.

strig 7y ago

Great and all, but I'll never purchase an automobile if I can help it. They are garbage, in my opinion. They feel like cheap toys, like kids' wagons. I've driven and ridden in horseless carriages and, aside from the acceleration, there's nothing special about it. Besides, as a horse rider, even the Ford Model T 0-60 isn't anything magical. It's...mundane to riders (who aren't on donkeys). The Bugatti Type 13, however, is objectively insane. Call me a luddite, but I want to feed and care for my animals. I want an 6 or 8 horse team that puts out gratuitous amounts of power and, yes, NOISE. I want sharp steering feedback and beefy leg muscles and stiff, aggressive saddles. I don't want a damn horseless carriage, I want a real freaking racing horse with all the money poured into the performance, and none into comfort. There are tons of buyers like me, too. SoCal has a huuuge horse culture of guys who buy old stallions, mares old and new, donkeys, oxen teams, carriages, carts. Tons of us LIKE riding. Tons of us LIKE offensively smelly animals. Tons of us LIKE manually commanding our animal to move. What about us? What happens when other people finally surrender their autonomy to shitty oil powered machines? What Ford should really do is build a mid/rear saddled mustang-based sport carriage. Enough of the gasoline automobile nonsense. It's over a decade away anyway. Let the people who like riding, ride!

wcarron 7y ago
> Your entire post I said "call me a luddite". You could've just written "You're a luddite." and saved yourself the trouble. I stopped reading your low-effort comment after the 3rd sentence.

Sohcahtoa82 7y ago

> even the Tesla Model 3 0-60 isn't anything magical. It's...mundane to riders (who aren't on Harleys). The P100D ludicrous mode, however, is objectively insane. Clearly you weren't in the Model 3 Performance. While not quick as fast as the P100DL's 2.4 second 0-60 time, it still does it in 3.2 seconds, which is only a hair off from the 565 horsepower Nissan GT-R. > ...NOISE...offensively loud engines... See, I actually prefer the quiet of an EV for one reason: When I flex the acceleration of an EV, I like the stealth. Specifically, I like that it doesn't announce to every cop within a 1 mile radius that I'm gunning it. Also, only other car guys are impressed by your noise. Everyone else rolls their eyes, especially when it's some sub-200 horsepower shitbox that isn't even flooring it. There are too many car enthusiasts that delete their muffler and then talk about how good their car sounds because they equate simply being loud with being good. Yeah, I currently drive a Subaru BRZ. I love its handling, and shifting the gears is fun, but my next car is going to be a performance EV. Fuel economy plays a part in my choice. I considered a Nissan GT-R for my next car, but I'm only going to own 1 car, and I don't want to have something that gets 20 mpg as my daily driver.

wcarron 7y ago
> While not quick as fast as the P100DL's 2.4 second 0-60 time, it still does it in 3.2 seconds Not impressive. My $10,500 KTM 790 Duke does 3.1s 0-60mph. Nowhere close to the fastest bike, at only 100ish horsepower. Literbikes with 200+ horsepower do low 2's, all at around $20k. > Everyone else rolls their eyes, especially when it's some sub-200 horsepower shitbox that isn't even flooring it Sure. Everyone thinks the honda lawnmower drivers are lame, including most every other car guy. But who was talking about shitboxes? I was talking about real performance cars (e.g. Shelby GT350R, Camaro ZL1, Corvette ZR1, BMW M cars (M4 not included - doesn't sound good), AMGs, Porsche 911, etc.) > . I considered a Nissan GT-R for my next car, but I'm only going to own 1 car, and I don't want to have something that gets 20 mpg as my daily driver. 1. If you can afford a GT-R, why's fuel economy a sticking point? Fuel cost is miniscule compared to the cost of the car/insurance. I get not having to fuel up as often, but filling up a gas tank is an order of magnitude (or 2) faster than charging an EV. Seems like a moot point. 2. Performance EV? Soooo, a Tesla S/X P100D? There aren't even any other worthwhile EV competitors. Audi e-Tron isn't fast. Jaguar i-Pace isn't fast. Chevy Bolt and Hyundia Kona - Same slow story.

hector_vasquez 7y ago

A lot of folks said the same thing about their horses and buggies. 20 years from now, people will roll their eyes at the view that electric vehicles are inferior to gas guzzlers. You'll come around.