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https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batteries-and-cheap-solar-power-are-shoving-fossil-fuels-grid https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batter

by dv_dt 7y ago

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batteries-and-cheap-solar-power-are-shoving-fossil-fuels-grid https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/07/giant-batteries-and-... > This month, officials in Los Angeles, California, are expected to approve a deal that would make solar power cheaper than ever while also addressing its chief flaw: It works only when the sun shines. The deal calls for a huge solar farm backed up by one of the world's largest batteries. It would provide 7% of the city's electricity beginning in 2023 at a cost of 1.997 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) for the solar power and 1.3 cents per kWh for the battery. That's cheaper than any power generated with fossil fuel.

WalterBright 7y ago
The need for batteries would be greatly reduced if the electricity rates were higher for when the grid was running on batteries.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  On the contrary. California's current energy usage goes from ~16GW to 32GWs each and every day. http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx Currently, electricity is generated by "peaker plants", which spin up when the price of electricity goes up, and then spin down when the price of electricity is low. Consumers are often passed the buck: peaker-plant electricity (usually natural gas) costs more than baseload electricity (usually nuclear or coal) Utility-scale batteries are competing against the Natural Gas peaker plants. The question is if utility scale batteries can make as much money (ie: provide the power at low enough costs) to be worthwhile.
  - dv_dt 7y ago
    The bidding costs for peaker plants have been beaten by renewable+storage combos for IIRC 2-3 years now for new builds of capacity. IF you think about it, the gas turbines are a fairly expensive capital cost with high maintenance vs renewables. Add to that intermittent operation and that capital costs performs even worse while adding maintenance wear and tear for startup/shutdown.
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    Wholesale prices for electricity certainly vary, but consumer prices are a flat rate, 24/7. Nowhere I've lived has this not been the case, and there is no incentive whatsoever for consumers to time-shift their electricity consumption. A huge part of what caused the Enron California electricity crisis is the utilities were unable, by law, to adjust consumer prices as wholesale prices changed. The utilities were required, by law, to provide whatever consumers demanded whenever they demanded it, at a fixed price, regardless of what it cost the utilities to provide it. If this has changed in California, that's for the better. In Seattle, the price of electricity is the same, 24/7. Consider gas prices at the pump. They vary every day, based on demand and supply of gas. Gas prices go up over Memorial Day. They go up when a refinery burns down. They go down in winter when people drive less. It works very well at matching up supply with demand. It broke down completely in the late 1970's when the government imposed price controls and allocation controls at the pump. When Reagan repealed all that, things worked fine again.
    - NickNameNick 7y ago
      Not in the US, but I have two meters on my house. One meter is attached to most of the circuits, and charges the 24/7 rate. The other meter is attached to the heater system, only works off-peak, and charges a discounted rate. The heater is basically a slab of steel, wrapped in heating elements, surrounded by insulation. It heats up when the power is on, and temperature controlled vents let air circulate when it's cold in the house. Works ok, but I'll probably change it out for a heat-pump soon.
      - rahimnathwani 7y ago
        What you describe sounds like 'Economy 7' in the UK.
    - philipkglass 7y ago
      I don't know when it changed, but California mandates time-of-use pricing for all commercial, industrial, and agricultural electricity customers. Residential customers can opt into ToU plans too. My uncle is on one because he is retired, so can set his own hours, but also likes to run electricity-intensive tools in his shop. https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=12194 https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=12194
  - rswskg 7y ago
    There is so much scope here for a hydrogen economy to take off. Run at 32gw all the time, when demand is 16gw, send that energy into generating hydrogen/and or batteries. It's the ideal use case for 'always on' nuclear.
- ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
  Then start investing in reducing the energy consumption of air conditioners, as that's by far the biggest consumer of energy in a home, and it's rather useless if it doesn't run during the day.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    But during the day is exactly when you less need batteries, since the sun is shining on the solar panels...
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      Yeah, solar seems like a pretty perfect match for aircon. It's also hottest when the sun is shining...
    - merpnderp 7y ago
      I don't know about LA, but in the midwest temps usually peak around 4pm, so AC really starts to crank right when solar is letting up.
      - ido 7y ago
        Depends on latitude I guess? In Berlin at the peak of summer sunset is around 10pm.
rb808 7y ago
Solar & Batteries work great in California when peak demand is when its hot. In the frozen North though its different, esp if you want to replace gas/oil heating with heat pumps, peak demand would be cold nights in January.
- godelski 7y ago
  This is the key that people forget. Not all power source work equally as well in all areas. There is a need for a diversified energy portfolio. I do want to follow this up saying that I fully support building as much solar and wind as we can. Not doing so is kinda dumb. Just saying it isn't a cure all.
- joncrane 7y ago
  Peak demand for energy. But peak demand for electricity is during peak AC season just like California. I don't think anyone is saying we're replacing natural gas to cook and heat with. (At least I hope not, cooking with gas is an indulgence I partake of regularly.)
  - mattlondon 7y ago
    Certainly in the UK there is talk of trying to wean people off of using gas to heat homes.(1). Options to replace it are electric heat pumps and/or hydrogen-based systems. Most people I know have abandoned gas hobs and replaced them with induction hobs - they feel a lot like cooking with gas (unlike halogen or ceramic ones), but are a lot more practical (e.g. cleaning, extra space etc) and better for air quality. 1 - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/hammond-says-gas-heating-will-be-replaced-by-low-carbon-systems https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/hammond-...
    - viraptor 7y ago
      > induction hobs - they feel a lot like cooking with gas This really depends on the hobs. Bad ones are nowhere near gas quality and trend to regulate the heat by going a few seconds full power then few seconds off. Good ones regulate in a much smoother / more consistent way. We can't compare generic "induction hob" - it doesn't exist.
rakoo 7y ago
It is cheaper than fossil fuel but reliable intermittent electricity is still polluting way too much to efficiently curb green house gases.

by dv_dt 7y ago

WalterBright 7y ago

The need for batteries would be greatly reduced if the electricity rates were higher for when the grid was running on batteries.

dragontamer 7y ago
On the contrary. California's current energy usage goes from ~16GW to 32GWs each and every day. http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx Currently, electricity is generated by "peaker plants", which spin up when the price of electricity goes up, and then spin down when the price of electricity is low. Consumers are often passed the buck: peaker-plant electricity (usually natural gas) costs more than baseload electricity (usually nuclear or coal) Utility-scale batteries are competing against the Natural Gas peaker plants. The question is if utility scale batteries can make as much money (ie: provide the power at low enough costs) to be worthwhile.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  The bidding costs for peaker plants have been beaten by renewable+storage combos for IIRC 2-3 years now for new builds of capacity. IF you think about it, the gas turbines are a fairly expensive capital cost with high maintenance vs renewables. Add to that intermittent operation and that capital costs performs even worse while adding maintenance wear and tear for startup/shutdown.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  Wholesale prices for electricity certainly vary, but consumer prices are a flat rate, 24/7. Nowhere I've lived has this not been the case, and there is no incentive whatsoever for consumers to time-shift their electricity consumption. A huge part of what caused the Enron California electricity crisis is the utilities were unable, by law, to adjust consumer prices as wholesale prices changed. The utilities were required, by law, to provide whatever consumers demanded whenever they demanded it, at a fixed price, regardless of what it cost the utilities to provide it. If this has changed in California, that's for the better. In Seattle, the price of electricity is the same, 24/7. Consider gas prices at the pump. They vary every day, based on demand and supply of gas. Gas prices go up over Memorial Day. They go up when a refinery burns down. They go down in winter when people drive less. It works very well at matching up supply with demand. It broke down completely in the late 1970's when the government imposed price controls and allocation controls at the pump. When Reagan repealed all that, things worked fine again.
  - NickNameNick 7y ago
    Not in the US, but I have two meters on my house. One meter is attached to most of the circuits, and charges the 24/7 rate. The other meter is attached to the heater system, only works off-peak, and charges a discounted rate. The heater is basically a slab of steel, wrapped in heating elements, surrounded by insulation. It heats up when the power is on, and temperature controlled vents let air circulate when it's cold in the house. Works ok, but I'll probably change it out for a heat-pump soon.
    - rahimnathwani 7y ago
      What you describe sounds like 'Economy 7' in the UK.
  - philipkglass 7y ago
    I don't know when it changed, but California mandates time-of-use pricing for all commercial, industrial, and agricultural electricity customers. Residential customers can opt into ToU plans too. My uncle is on one because he is retired, so can set his own hours, but also likes to run electricity-intensive tools in his shop. https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=12194 https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=12194
- rswskg 7y ago
  There is so much scope here for a hydrogen economy to take off. Run at 32gw all the time, when demand is 16gw, send that energy into generating hydrogen/and or batteries. It's the ideal use case for 'always on' nuclear.
ApolloFortyNine 7y ago
Then start investing in reducing the energy consumption of air conditioners, as that's by far the biggest consumer of energy in a home, and it's rather useless if it doesn't run during the day.
- icebraining 7y ago
  But during the day is exactly when you less need batteries, since the sun is shining on the solar panels...
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    Yeah, solar seems like a pretty perfect match for aircon. It's also hottest when the sun is shining...
  - merpnderp 7y ago
    I don't know about LA, but in the midwest temps usually peak around 4pm, so AC really starts to crank right when solar is letting up.
    - ido 7y ago
      Depends on latitude I guess? In Berlin at the peak of summer sunset is around 10pm.

rb808 7y ago

Solar & Batteries work great in California when peak demand is when its hot. In the frozen North though its different, esp if you want to replace gas/oil heating with heat pumps, peak demand would be cold nights in January.

godelski 7y ago
This is the key that people forget. Not all power source work equally as well in all areas. There is a need for a diversified energy portfolio. I do want to follow this up saying that I fully support building as much solar and wind as we can. Not doing so is kinda dumb. Just saying it isn't a cure all.
joncrane 7y ago
Peak demand for energy. But peak demand for electricity is during peak AC season just like California. I don't think anyone is saying we're replacing natural gas to cook and heat with. (At least I hope not, cooking with gas is an indulgence I partake of regularly.)
- mattlondon 7y ago
  Certainly in the UK there is talk of trying to wean people off of using gas to heat homes.(1). Options to replace it are electric heat pumps and/or hydrogen-based systems. Most people I know have abandoned gas hobs and replaced them with induction hobs - they feel a lot like cooking with gas (unlike halogen or ceramic ones), but are a lot more practical (e.g. cleaning, extra space etc) and better for air quality. 1 - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/hammond-says-gas-heating-will-be-replaced-by-low-carbon-systems https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/hammond-...
  - viraptor 7y ago
    > induction hobs - they feel a lot like cooking with gas This really depends on the hobs. Bad ones are nowhere near gas quality and trend to regulate the heat by going a few seconds full power then few seconds off. Good ones regulate in a much smoother / more consistent way. We can't compare generic "induction hob" - it doesn't exist.

rakoo 7y ago

It is cheaper than fossil fuel but reliable intermittent electricity is still polluting way too much to efficiently curb green house gases.