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Palantir’s User Manual for Cops
- chance_state 7y agoWhat motivates extremely talented tech workers to devote their limited working years to making the world a worse place to live in?
- meesles 7y ago$
- confounded 7y agoSurprisingly, at least for the Bay Area, the money doesn’t even seem to be that good: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Palantir,Google,Facebook&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Palantir,Google,Facebook&tra...
- baobrain 7y ago$, like someone else has said, but I also would guess that many of the engineers do not have a clear idea of the overarching functionality of the application. I'm sure internal communication about the product is extremely positive, with phrases like "improved law enforcement accuracy by XX%, decreased customer costs and time by YY," so some may truly believe they are doing something that everyone would agree is good.
- afutd 7y agoSomehow I have a feeling that nearly all the engineers working on it have a clearer idea of the overarching function of the application than you do.
- zeropnc 7y agoBelieve it or not, contrary to judeo-christian Western ideals, not everything is morally black and white.
- sansnomme 7y agoIs the work-life balance at Palantir better? Read on HN that defence companies have much better pacing.
- pm90 7y agoIn general, yes, defense contractors are better. But they also have a old school thinking about compensation and equity, so it’s a trade off. Not sure about Palantir specifically though.
- nosequel 7y agoMost defense contracts require 40-hour work weeks. A company can't ask you to work more than 40 hours typically or be in breach of contract (being unfair to the competition who bid on the contract). So yes, when I worked on DoD contracts I was in at 7am, out at 3:45pm.
- _iyig 7y agoWhat leads well-off Americans, whose safety and comfort is guaranteed by the constant efforts of law enforcement, to conclude that legal efforts to make law enforcement more efficient would make the world a worse place?
- fromthestart 7y agoAn understanding of the inevitability of abuse of unchecked power.
- imglorp 7y agoPaying attention to world history, for one. For another, I've personally seen my work get turned from a human safety product in one market into a direct instrument of human oppression in another market. Lots of tech is just a tool, which can be used for good or evil. The thing is, once good people see what is possible, it provides them an easy route to doing evil which they might not have had before.
- _iyig 7y agoI'm sorry to hear about your personal experience; I've been in a similar situation myself, related to voice assistant technology. However, I don't think either of our experiences necessarily imply that Palantir is evil. For example: Typewriters can be turned to evil. IBM showed this to the world with their WWII-era Nazi collaboration. That doesn't mean the world should abandon typewriters, or that no self-respecting engineer should work on typewriters, or that they would be necessarily used for evil by the law-enforcement arm of a democratic society. Should police agencies collect and store real-time location data for every private car? Probably not. I'd support legislation to restrict such practices. Should Palantir help police officers sort and present the data they collect, in general including not only LPR data but also criminal records, known associates, and vehicle information? I'd say yes.
- anigbrowl 7y agoTypewriters can be turned to evil. IBM showed this to the world with their WWII-era Nazi collaboration. That doesn't mean the world should abandon typewriters, or that no self-respecting engineer should work on typewriters, or that they would be necessarily used for evil by the law-enforcement arm of a democratic society. IBM's relationship with the Third Reich was not based on the mere supply of typewriters; such a suggestion reduces your credibility on this topic to zero. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
- zarathustraa 7y agoIt's making it worse until something bad happens to someone you value. If Obama's daughters (or Trump's if you are on the other side) were killed in some horrific racist incident, wouldn't you approve the usage of such software if it was the only hope of getting the perpetrator? Or would you say "as much as I am saddened, I cannot approve such massive invasion of privacy".
- _iyig 7y agoAre you alleging that Palantir enables or encourages "horrific racist incidents"? Could you be more specific? EDIT: I see what you mean. I had mistaken the meaning of OP. Please ignore this comment.
- pm90 7y agoI think the reference here is to the problem of fatal shooting of minorities by police in the US. The OP is attempting to draw attention to the problem by an exaggerated situation in which the former first daughters are involved in such an incodent.
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- daveFNbuck 7y agoThey're saying the opposite. They're saying that Palantir is helping catch violent racists after they commit crimes.
- chance_state 7y ago>If Obama's daughters (or Trump's if you are on the other side) were killed in some horrific racist incident, wouldn't you approve the usage of such software if it was the only hope of getting the perpetrator? Or would you say "as much as I am saddened, I cannot approve such massive invasion of privacy". The latter, every time. The nature of principles is that they do not change with changing circumstances. I find your example extremely unpersuasive.
- dbuder 7y agoThey think they are on the good guys' side.
- atemerev 7y agoWhy a worse place? In this particular example, Palantir is used by the cops to run investigations; it is just a more convenient user interface and analytical engine to already existing data sources. I don’t see anything particularly unethical here.
- avmich 7y ago> just a more convenient user interface This. A difference between a rock in a sling and a nuclear bomb can, hyperbolically, viewed as a better UI for rather similar goal. Does it explain the things? Do you see how quantitative differences become qualitative?
- leesec 7y agoWould you rather tech companies not be trying to help law enforcement or our military, and just leave them to their own devices? I have my answer, but I don't think it's nearly this black and white. Palantir probably does a lot of good, just like all the big tech companies, even though it's the bad stuff that mostly makes the news.
- chance_state 7y ago> Would you rather tech companies not be trying to help law enforcement or our military, and just leave them to their own devices? Yes, I'd rather not aid law enforcement in spreading disinformation and targeting journalists, for example [1]. Though I do agree that it's not as cut and dry as "Palantir is evil". [1] https://www.thetechherald.com/articles/Data-intelligence-firms-proposed-a-systematic-attack-against-WikiLeaks/12751/ https://www.thetechherald.com/articles/Data-intelligence-fir...
- TrueDuality 7y agoI almost guarantee that these engineers have a very different value set than you. They could possibly see this as granting law enforcement legitimate and authorized access to collect evidence needed to prosecute real criminals. In their minds abuses of the technology they make is likely the illegal part not the existence of their tool itself. Most of the responses I'm seeing here are about money and while that is probably a factor at some level, I like to believe that people need to have a lot of pressure put on them by society for other reasons to give up their personal morals in exchange for money. "No one is the villain in their own story".
- chance_state 7y agoI asked the question in earnest, so I appreciate your reply. I think you're probably right.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y agoI will add to this. If you look at us biologically speaking, we are herding creatures. That means the majority will go along with what the leaders want. While the Milgram experiment was skewed, the reality is most people will shock you to death just because an authority told them so. And if you ask them at the end if what they did was right, they will say yes, or they wouldn't have done it. Being a decent of German Jews, I normally think: "Who of the people that I know wouldn't turn me in." The sad reality: very few. It's by design. Herds don't work when everyone is trying to go their own way. There will always be individuals who eschew herd. Biologically, they generally die, but a few find new environments or start their own new herds. Of course the herd problem then starts over.
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- singron 7y agoSo far every job orientation I've done has been 10% information useful for doing the job and 90% making me feel good about the job. You probably didn't take the job if you didn't feel at least a little good about it. If you don't feel good about the job anymore, then you probably quit. This pattern makes sure that the organization is mostly full of people that support it. Most of your feelings aren't rational conclusions based on sound analytical reasoning, and if your day-to-day is just making widgets for other widgets, you probably aren't often forced to update them.
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- 49531 7y agoI mean, how many of us work at Microsoft or Amazon? Companies currently in a bidding war to build the "War Cloud".
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- ataturk 7y agoStatism, the replacement of religion by the state. Also, some people have a character flaw in that they want to control other people and they genuinely believe they know what is in everyone else's best interest. Armed with that mindset, any number of atrocious acts are possible.
- subjectsigma 7y agoI'm sure if you had a shred of empathy in your whole body, you could think for about five seconds and realize that maybe not everyone else had the same system of values as you.
- ummonk 7y agoWould this be all that shocking to the general public? Watch any detective show and the fictional tools there are at least as capable as this real life tool.
- ericzawo 7y ago"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
- zbyte64 7y agoOne way to explore that question would be to make a game to expose people to these ethical questions. I am thinking like "Papers Please" but recasted as ICE gathering up illegals and their families.
- ng12 7y agoNot any more than it should be shocking to a forum of computer scientists that police agencies have tools to query a database and produce visualizations.
- spinlock 7y agoOne piece of data they cannot access is firearm ownership. It is illegal to use a computer to store information about guns in America.
- Doches 7y agoThis is genuinely the most amusing joke I've heard today. How do you think background checks for purchases work?
- gourou 7y agospinlock seems mutex
- jumbopapa 7y agoBackground checks do not contain information about gun ownership. It is federally illegal to have a registry of gun ownership.
- dfsegoat 7y agoI am not sure why it is amusing? The interpretation is correct: The background system is called NICS [1], and all information submitted to it is destroyed after 1 day. The system only outputs PROCEED or DENY to the FFL when someone is being checked for a firearms purchase. 1 - "Per Title 28, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 25.9(b)(1), (2), and (3), the NICS Section must destroy all identifying information on allowed transactions prior to the start of the next NICS operational day. If a potential purchaser is delayed or denied a firearm and successfully appeals the decision, the NICS Section cannot retain a record of the overturned appeal." https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics
- ORioN63 7y agoWhat about FFL? Can FFL entities keep data about gun trade and share it with third parties?
- bluedino 7y ago
- strooper 7y ago> "Palantir software is instrumental to the operations of ICE, which is planning one of the largest-ever targeted immigration enforcement raids this weekend on thousands of undocumented families. Activists argue raids of this scale would be impossible without software like Palantir." Once and for all, it is the policy makers, not the tech industry, who are responsible for these operations. Tech enables people doing things easily, which can be good or evil. It is people, who should decide, be concern and push the lawmakers towards the right/justified path.
- overthemoon 7y agoI don't accept this. This is shirking responsibility for what one has brought into the world. Technology has a moral component that can't be ignored in the name of progressive idealism. It's both/and.
- m-p-3 7y agoStill, if someone crafts a knife and someone uses it to hurt another I'll blame the user, not the crafter.
- overthemoon 7y agoThe time has passed to blame the knife maker, unfortunately. I'd like to give him a piece of my mind. Kidding aside, I see where you're coming from. I'm not trying to excuse lawmakers or the people who fire the gun, operate the drone, etc. I'm just saying the knife inventor is a part of the chain, he or she is not a neutral party.
- mulmen 7y agoThat’s not compelling. Knives have practical and constructive uses outside harming people. Palantir is being used as designed.
- convolvatron 7y agosure. but I sell you a knife and you come back and ask for a bunch of features that make it easier to hide, and a special curve to make it easier to get underneath the human ribcage, and a wider blade that makes wounds heal more slowly, etc....at some point you have to accept your complicity
- spraak 7y agoI feel so ignorant that I didn't know such a company was behind tslint. I wonder what Palantir uses TS for specifically
- rsweeney21 7y agoI'm mixed on this. I hired a former CIA analyst a few years ago. Part of his job at the CIA was to contribute to the daily briefings provided to president Obama. I asked him how he felt about the ethics of spying on American citizens. He said I wouldn't believe the number of threats that were prevented on a daily basis because of the tools and data they have access to. He said they don't share the information about what or how many crimes they prevent because it would cause panic. They also don't share that information because it would give away how they were uncovering the plans. It seemed like a viable explanation and I don't think he had any incentive to embellish...but it also seemed like something big brother would say to get me to give up freedoms.
- count 7y agoKeep in mind that internally lots of stats/etc are posted around things like cyber attacks, where a 'port scan' is counted as 65k different attacks (all of the tcp ports getting a 'malicious' SYN == an attack). It's the functional equivalent of calling satellite overflights attacks, every time they fly by. 'We are under constant attack!' also helps the internal justification of working for/with agencies like that.
- bsamuels 7y agoI don't think that we can compare cybersecurity to government intelligence agencies. Cybersecurity is a field that can only grow by making people fear for their computer security, which is why you often hear such exaggerated numbers for "attacks". You could argue the same thing about the CIA, but there's no direct financial incentive like there is for growing your cybersecurity business. I believe the real crux of the problem is intellectuals won't trust intel agencies because there's no evidence that they're being used exclusively for good, and the intel agencies can't provide that evidence without burning their methodology. There's absolutely no way for us as outsiders to evaluate whether mass intelligence collection tools like PRISM are being used for good or bad, or whether they're even necessary. So instead we have to judge them based on what we know
- count 7y ago
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- zymhan 7y agoI was under the impression "Gotham" is the name of their NYC office, not a product.
- akusete 7y agoPor que no los dos?
- gundmc 7y agoIt blows my mind that Google and Facebook have been demonized by the wider media as "surveillance capitalism" while Palantir, who for all intents and purposes is literally a surveillance tech giant, has largely escaped public consciousness and criticism.