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All the traditional car manufacturers make announcements all the time about how they're going to be really good at EVs in 5 years time or whatever. They've been

All the traditional car manufacturers make announcements all the time about how they're going to be really good at EVs in 5 years time or whatever. They've been saying stuff like this for a decade now. Here's a VW press release from 2013: September 9, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- The Volkswagen Group has set its sights on global market leadership in electric mobility. "We are starting at exactly the right time. We are electrifying all vehicle classes, and therefore have everything we need to make the Volkswagen Group the top automaker in all respects, including electric mobility, by 2018", Prof. Dr. Martin Winterkorn, CEO of Volkswagen Aktiengesellschaft, said on the eve of the 65th International Motor Show in Frankfurt am Main. https://tass.com/press-releases/700457 https://tass.com/press-releases/700457 So far its been bullshit from most* of the incumbents because the boardrooms can't give up on the idea of ICE. * Honourable mention to Hyundai and Kia who have cars on the road that can genuinely compete with Tesla. Unfortunately they can't source enough batteries to make many of them. * And ok Nissan and BMW and co had quite good 120-mile range EVs a few years ago but thats all history now, its 200 miles or forget it from now on. * ok yeah the Bolt was quite good but they didn't bother launching it in my country (uk) so its not on my radar, and they didn't bother trying to sell any cos they were making them at a huge loss * ok Nissan do have a 200+ mile range Leaf now so I'll give them credit for that. There are general concerns about price and lack of battery cooling though.

graycrow 7y ago
Yes, this is pretty exact description of a current state of affairs in the EV market. I would also mention Renault and PSA (with Opel), which also trying to ride on EV wave.
orbifold 7y ago
Well VW is due to release cars based on their new electric platform this year and the next few years going forward. They are called id https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/e-mobility/en.html https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/e-mobility/en.html. I don't think they are necessarily late. BMW and Mercedes have made similar investments in all electric platforms. They are all basically going full force in that direction now and have been for a few years. Note that VWs platform will find its way into cars of all of their other brands (SEAT, Skoda and so on). BMWs CEO left recently because he did not execute quickly enough on their electric strategy squandering their initial lead.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Well VW is due to release cars based on their new electric platform this year Finally after years and years of saying it was around the corner. Lets see the price and specs. I think they still havent released those details? BMW and Mercedes have made similar investments in all electric platforms. What you mean is, BMW and Mercedes have made similar noises about getting really good at EVs in a few years time but so far have produced nothing of much relevance. The BMW i3 was pretty good for its time but then they disbanded the team, goodness knows what boardroom nonsense was going on there.
  - turbinerneiter 7y ago
    Luckily, we had the emissions fraud scandal. Gave a big push to the EV people in all those companies. The combusters still have a lot to say, since they are the ones earning the profits. It's not meant as an excuse for the old guard, but making billions per year by selling ICEs doesn't make it easier to launch good EVs. Without Tesla, it would never happen.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    It takes years to design a car. They need to run for thousands of miles across rough roads. There are thousands of moving parts. There are thousands more parts that don't move but are still complex.
    - silversconfused 7y ago
      An EV drivetrain is extremely simple and reliable. They are dragging their feet on purpose to extend their returns on ICE investment, not because it's "too hard".
      - bluGill 7y ago
        A Drive train is just a small part of a car. While it is simpler than an ICE, it is not simple to make millions of them reliable for 10 years.
tim333 7y ago
>bullshit from most* of the incumbents because the boardrooms can't give up on the idea of ICE I think its more down to the public. They offer EVs but most buyers stick with ICEs.
- marvin 7y ago
  Teslas are selling like hotcakes. If the problem is that customers of the established manufacturers choose combustion over electric, it must be a deeper structural issue. Such as e.g. dealerships downselling EV models due to lower maintenance requirements, and hence future profits. Or some other reason, e.g. (just spitballing here) that most of their EV vehicles suck. Maybe because of an unwillingness to cannibalize their ICE lineup, inability to build a good enough EV at a profit and at scale, or something else.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >Teslas are selling like hotcakes. Because the Tesla sedans combine the driving experience and technological features of a nice German car with the green points of a Prius so white collar professionals buy them in droves (it's the best of both worlds so of course they do). Basically all the other EVs are competing with economy cars and crossover mom mobiles where the competition is much stiffer and the buyers more frugal. Nobody buying a Tesla is saying "gee, I could buy an Accord and put all that money toward gas" whereas basically every Bolt and Leaf buyer is making that comparison to the Sonic and the Versa.
    - codeulike 7y ago
      So then the question is, why are all the other EVs competing with economy cars?
      - clouddrover 7y ago
        They're not. The Audio e-Tron isn't, the Porsche Taycan isn't, the Volkswagen ID.3 isn't. The Porsche Macan won't be and the Audio e-Tron GT won't be.
maxsilver 7y ago
> ok yeah the Bolt was quite good but they didn't bother launching it in my country (uk) so its not on my radar, and they didn't bother trying to sell any That's not really fair. You can't buy a Renault Zoe in my country (US), even though it is by most accounts a great electric car. I don't get to ignore their entire lineup, just because they don't happen to sell them here -- the world is bigger than any one particular country. The Bolt is quite good, it's highly competitive against modern EVs, and the only reason it's sold "at loss" is because they sell out instantly, and can't make more of them fast enough to fulfill all demand -- a problem they are actively trying to fix https://electrek.co/2018/07/03/gm-increasing-chevy-bolt-ev-production-demand/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/03/gm-increasing-chevy-bolt-ev-p...
- benj111 7y ago
  Its not vapour ware no, but if you don't have an option to buy it... The parent said "so its not on my radar, and they didn't bother trying to sell any" which is true, and from my reading, fairly neutral.
- codeulike 7y ago
  They didn't try very hard to sell them in the USA is what I meant
- codeulike 7y ago
  "GM stands to lose $9000 per car on chevy bolt" (2016) https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dollars-per-car-on-chevy-bolt.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dolla... GM Finally Admits That Chevrolet Bolt Was Never Profitable (2019) https://www.hotcars.com/gm-admits-bolt-not-profitable/ https://www.hotcars.com/gm-admits-bolt-not-profitable/ Thats why they didn't try very hard to sell them in the USA or anywhere else.
tinco 7y ago
Are you sure the Chevrolet Bolt is not available where you live? Here in The Netherlands they're everywhere as Opel Ampera's. The latest one has 420km range I think.
- codeulike 7y ago
  Yep, probably because UK is a rhd country
  - AstaManasta 7y ago
    I’ve seen quite a few Vauxhall Amperas in the UK. RHD of course seeing as they are Vauxhall. Look good except for the weird plastic inserts on the allow wheels. They were around £40k or something though which ain’t cheap
    - codeulike 7y ago
      I belive the Ampera was a hybrid, Ampera-e was the pure electric version (and hence the Bolt), and it never came to the UK.
- codeulike 7y ago
  The Ampera is a plug-in hybrid, I think? And the Ampera-e is the pure EV version that is basically the Bolt? Here's an interesting article: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115366_opel-to-swap-ampera-e-aka-bolt-ev-for-all-electric-corsa-model-in-2020 https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115366_opel-to-swap-am... [The new electric Corsa] will supplant the larger Ampera-e electric car, which launched last year to great enthusiasm in some markets but has since appeared to be in very limited supply, according to numerous complaints by interested buyers. Just 1,971 units of the Opel Ampera-e were sold throughout Europe, according to JATO Dynamics.
Shivetya 7y ago
Do note that in many cases those board rooms are not just stuck with executives of the company but representatives of the unions. The later stands to see significant loss in jobs as the needs for labor drop considerably with EV drive trains. While you suggest 200 miles or forget it, I suggest that 250 or near it is the absolute requirement for ENTRY level cars. Now a rental fleet, like how they do scooters, could fare well with sub 100 mile cars. Premium cars need to set their bottom level at 300 miles or more. Remember, all these range numbers are at 100% battery capacity and mild to warm weather. Hence we should not accept less than 300 now. Tesla has been there for years and there is no excuse for any premium brand not doing the same. As mentioned in another article, I really get the idea the BMW exec recent step down was resulting in part because of that laughable new Mini
- codeulike 7y ago
  Oh man, I hadn't even heard about that Mini. re: 300 miles you're probably right, although things are a bit different in Europe where everything is closer together and non-Tesla charging infrastructure is generally better.
chaostheory 7y ago
VW's e-Golf isn't the best EV, but they have one people can buy in the US. It's not vaporware. https://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/section/overview/ https://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/section/overview/
- codeulike 7y ago
  Yeah it was ok for 2016 or so. It's basically the same price and range as the 2016 Leaf. But it's no competition for the EVs that are available in 2019.
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    You're right. It's similar to Hyundai's offerings but more expensive. Still, VW made a promise for EV and it looks like they have results even though it's not impressive.
igrekel 7y ago
I was shopping for an electric car just two months ago and you're right but I'd add that while Nissan now has the Leaf Plus with longer range, if you order one you only get it in 2020. Also, a lot of these options (Bolt, Kia Kona, Leaf Plus) are at price levels, especially if you add any options, that are close to the Tesla 3, but after driving all of them, the Tesla is just a better car.

graycrow 7y ago

Yes, this is pretty exact description of a current state of affairs in the EV market. I would also mention Renault and PSA (with Opel), which also trying to ride on EV wave.

orbifold 7y ago

Well VW is due to release cars based on their new electric platform this year and the next few years going forward. They are called id https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/e-mobility/en.html https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/e-mobility/en.html. I don't think they are necessarily late. BMW and Mercedes have made similar investments in all electric platforms. They are all basically going full force in that direction now and have been for a few years. Note that VWs platform will find its way into cars of all of their other brands (SEAT, Skoda and so on). BMWs CEO left recently because he did not execute quickly enough on their electric strategy squandering their initial lead.

codeulike 7y ago
Well VW is due to release cars based on their new electric platform this year Finally after years and years of saying it was around the corner. Lets see the price and specs. I think they still havent released those details? BMW and Mercedes have made similar investments in all electric platforms. What you mean is, BMW and Mercedes have made similar noises about getting really good at EVs in a few years time but so far have produced nothing of much relevance. The BMW i3 was pretty good for its time but then they disbanded the team, goodness knows what boardroom nonsense was going on there.
- turbinerneiter 7y ago
  Luckily, we had the emissions fraud scandal. Gave a big push to the EV people in all those companies. The combusters still have a lot to say, since they are the ones earning the profits. It's not meant as an excuse for the old guard, but making billions per year by selling ICEs doesn't make it easier to launch good EVs. Without Tesla, it would never happen.
- bluGill 7y ago
  It takes years to design a car. They need to run for thousands of miles across rough roads. There are thousands of moving parts. There are thousands more parts that don't move but are still complex.
  - silversconfused 7y ago
    An EV drivetrain is extremely simple and reliable. They are dragging their feet on purpose to extend their returns on ICE investment, not because it's "too hard".
    - bluGill 7y ago
      A Drive train is just a small part of a car. While it is simpler than an ICE, it is not simple to make millions of them reliable for 10 years.

tim333 7y ago

>bullshit from most* of the incumbents because the boardrooms can't give up on the idea of ICE I think its more down to the public. They offer EVs but most buyers stick with ICEs.

marvin 7y ago
Teslas are selling like hotcakes. If the problem is that customers of the established manufacturers choose combustion over electric, it must be a deeper structural issue. Such as e.g. dealerships downselling EV models due to lower maintenance requirements, and hence future profits. Or some other reason, e.g. (just spitballing here) that most of their EV vehicles suck. Maybe because of an unwillingness to cannibalize their ICE lineup, inability to build a good enough EV at a profit and at scale, or something else.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >Teslas are selling like hotcakes. Because the Tesla sedans combine the driving experience and technological features of a nice German car with the green points of a Prius so white collar professionals buy them in droves (it's the best of both worlds so of course they do). Basically all the other EVs are competing with economy cars and crossover mom mobiles where the competition is much stiffer and the buyers more frugal. Nobody buying a Tesla is saying "gee, I could buy an Accord and put all that money toward gas" whereas basically every Bolt and Leaf buyer is making that comparison to the Sonic and the Versa.
  - codeulike 7y ago
    So then the question is, why are all the other EVs competing with economy cars?
    - clouddrover 7y ago
      They're not. The Audio e-Tron isn't, the Porsche Taycan isn't, the Volkswagen ID.3 isn't. The Porsche Macan won't be and the Audio e-Tron GT won't be.

maxsilver 7y ago

> ok yeah the Bolt was quite good but they didn't bother launching it in my country (uk) so its not on my radar, and they didn't bother trying to sell any That's not really fair. You can't buy a Renault Zoe in my country (US), even though it is by most accounts a great electric car. I don't get to ignore their entire lineup, just because they don't happen to sell them here -- the world is bigger than any one particular country. The Bolt is quite good, it's highly competitive against modern EVs, and the only reason it's sold "at loss" is because they sell out instantly, and can't make more of them fast enough to fulfill all demand -- a problem they are actively trying to fix https://electrek.co/2018/07/03/gm-increasing-chevy-bolt-ev-production-demand/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/03/gm-increasing-chevy-bolt-ev-p...

benj111 7y ago
Its not vapour ware no, but if you don't have an option to buy it... The parent said "so its not on my radar, and they didn't bother trying to sell any" which is true, and from my reading, fairly neutral.
codeulike 7y ago
They didn't try very hard to sell them in the USA is what I meant
codeulike 7y ago
"GM stands to lose $9000 per car on chevy bolt" (2016) https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dollars-per-car-on-chevy-bolt.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dolla... GM Finally Admits That Chevrolet Bolt Was Never Profitable (2019) https://www.hotcars.com/gm-admits-bolt-not-profitable/ https://www.hotcars.com/gm-admits-bolt-not-profitable/ Thats why they didn't try very hard to sell them in the USA or anywhere else.

tinco 7y ago

Are you sure the Chevrolet Bolt is not available where you live? Here in The Netherlands they're everywhere as Opel Ampera's. The latest one has 420km range I think.

codeulike 7y ago
Yep, probably because UK is a rhd country
- AstaManasta 7y ago
  I’ve seen quite a few Vauxhall Amperas in the UK. RHD of course seeing as they are Vauxhall. Look good except for the weird plastic inserts on the allow wheels. They were around £40k or something though which ain’t cheap
  - codeulike 7y ago
    I belive the Ampera was a hybrid, Ampera-e was the pure electric version (and hence the Bolt), and it never came to the UK.
codeulike 7y ago
The Ampera is a plug-in hybrid, I think? And the Ampera-e is the pure EV version that is basically the Bolt? Here's an interesting article: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115366_opel-to-swap-ampera-e-aka-bolt-ev-for-all-electric-corsa-model-in-2020 https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115366_opel-to-swap-am... [The new electric Corsa] will supplant the larger Ampera-e electric car, which launched last year to great enthusiasm in some markets but has since appeared to be in very limited supply, according to numerous complaints by interested buyers. Just 1,971 units of the Opel Ampera-e were sold throughout Europe, according to JATO Dynamics.

Shivetya 7y ago

Do note that in many cases those board rooms are not just stuck with executives of the company but representatives of the unions. The later stands to see significant loss in jobs as the needs for labor drop considerably with EV drive trains. While you suggest 200 miles or forget it, I suggest that 250 or near it is the absolute requirement for ENTRY level cars. Now a rental fleet, like how they do scooters, could fare well with sub 100 mile cars. Premium cars need to set their bottom level at 300 miles or more. Remember, all these range numbers are at 100% battery capacity and mild to warm weather. Hence we should not accept less than 300 now. Tesla has been there for years and there is no excuse for any premium brand not doing the same. As mentioned in another article, I really get the idea the BMW exec recent step down was resulting in part because of that laughable new Mini

codeulike 7y ago
Oh man, I hadn't even heard about that Mini. re: 300 miles you're probably right, although things are a bit different in Europe where everything is closer together and non-Tesla charging infrastructure is generally better.

chaostheory 7y ago

VW's e-Golf isn't the best EV, but they have one people can buy in the US. It's not vaporware. https://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/section/overview/ https://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/section/overview/

codeulike 7y ago
Yeah it was ok for 2016 or so. It's basically the same price and range as the 2016 Leaf. But it's no competition for the EVs that are available in 2019.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  You're right. It's similar to Hyundai's offerings but more expensive. Still, VW made a promise for EV and it looks like they have results even though it's not impressive.

igrekel 7y ago

I was shopping for an electric car just two months ago and you're right but I'd add that while Nissan now has the Leaf Plus with longer range, if you order one you only get it in 2020. Also, a lot of these options (Bolt, Kia Kona, Leaf Plus) are at price levels, especially if you add any options, that are close to the Tesla 3, but after driving all of them, the Tesla is just a better car.