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One of the key considerations I look at is license. If the 3rd party library has a license I can work with, modify and use etc. And you have to consider distr

One of the key considerations I look at is license. If the 3rd party library has a license I can work with, modify and use etc. And you have to consider distribution too in that conversation. A lot of times this one fact takes away all doubt on the right way forward. People use Apache licenses on a lot of projects that it is questionable if not down right improper, and I am kinda anal about that as for commercial products you don't want someone coming back and saying you violated the terms/spirit of the license. Outside of licensing. It is usually based upon the needs of the project, if I can find a library that does 80% of what I need and I can add the remaining 20% and I am happy to live with that code then I'll definitely use a 3rd party. In general I favor those libraries, but just so many times the licensing trips the flag that it isn't worth the risk and adding a few extra days or even weeks to a project is well worth the time. One other point, I also am really big on logging/metric collection, if I need to go in and instrument an entire library then it adds another level of work so I start thinking about just creating our own. But not all libraries do need detailed logging and metrics (although IMO most do).

philipkiely 7y ago
The Apache 2.0 license very clearly allows commercial use. The sole major difference between Apache 2.0 and, say, MIT is that Apache 2.0 prevents you from using the trademark of the entity that created the original software that you are modifying. "This License does not grant permission to use the trade names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor, except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE file." from https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 I'm not a lawyer and not your lawyer.
- davismwfl 7y ago
  I typed Apache and was thinking GPL, totally my fault. Over the years I have sought council and been advised by multiple different attorney's that for a closed source commercial product to avoid certain licenses, like GPL and others. Apache in fairness is not one of them, my bad. MIT and Apache are the two we have used and included in projects in recent memory. In the end I am not a lawyer either and my core point still is the same, a major question for whether to use a 3rd party library still is around what license the library is released under. And it is usually best to get advice from an attorney for any of the more complex license models.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    GPL allows for commercial use, but you must also provide source code with your product. As such, it can often be difficult to monetize.
  - kyruzic 7y ago
    What is a situation where liscensing your software as GPL is "questionable if not down right improper"? The entire point of the GPL is to spread the adoption of free as in freedom software. If you aren't willing to share your project with the community you are not allowed to use the community's work.
    - davismwfl 7y ago
      I agree overall, nothing is wrong or improper with GPL if the product you are creating also complies with the same license terms. In the context I said questionable and improper is discussing commercial software. When I think of commercial software it is a non open source product being sold, licensed etc. Not that open source can't be commercialized but if you notice almost all companies run a dual license for their commercial vs open source software, e.g. QT, Mongo and others. They do this because it is the only way to monetize the software and not have every competitor have the same proprietary add ons they created and companies are willing to pay for. An example I dealt with a few years ago, I was working on an embedded project and the associated desktop software that the original developer utilized some GPL licensed open source libraries, compiled into the binaries (both embedded and desktop). When I did a license review and discussed it with the attorney it was deemed that GPL licensed components could not be included due to the licensing terms and the way that product was distributed along with the closed nature. In general I follow the rule, and have been told multiple times, that GPL (any version) with rare exception is not to be used in commercial software (including API's and server based products) unless you are strictly dynamically linking to the library. But if you are compiling it into your commercial product and especially if you are making alterations to it and compiling it in you are in violation of the license terms (and definitely the spirit of the license). Of course, if your product is open source, then that is a totally different story. Even more open licenses like Apache and MIT still have copyright notices you need to comply with at minimum, so all that has to be taken into consideration as it needs to be added to product manuals, about pages etc otherwise you are in technical violation of the terms. Hence, the license terms of any library should be a key consideration on whether you include it into your project.

philipkiely 7y ago

The Apache 2.0 license very clearly allows commercial use. The sole major difference between Apache 2.0 and, say, MIT is that Apache 2.0 prevents you from using the trademark of the entity that created the original software that you are modifying. "This License does not grant permission to use the trade names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor, except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE file." from https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0 I'm not a lawyer and not your lawyer.

davismwfl 7y ago
I typed Apache and was thinking GPL, totally my fault. Over the years I have sought council and been advised by multiple different attorney's that for a closed source commercial product to avoid certain licenses, like GPL and others. Apache in fairness is not one of them, my bad. MIT and Apache are the two we have used and included in projects in recent memory. In the end I am not a lawyer either and my core point still is the same, a major question for whether to use a 3rd party library still is around what license the library is released under. And it is usually best to get advice from an attorney for any of the more complex license models.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  GPL allows for commercial use, but you must also provide source code with your product. As such, it can often be difficult to monetize.
- kyruzic 7y ago
  What is a situation where liscensing your software as GPL is "questionable if not down right improper"? The entire point of the GPL is to spread the adoption of free as in freedom software. If you aren't willing to share your project with the community you are not allowed to use the community's work.
  - davismwfl 7y ago
    I agree overall, nothing is wrong or improper with GPL if the product you are creating also complies with the same license terms. In the context I said questionable and improper is discussing commercial software. When I think of commercial software it is a non open source product being sold, licensed etc. Not that open source can't be commercialized but if you notice almost all companies run a dual license for their commercial vs open source software, e.g. QT, Mongo and others. They do this because it is the only way to monetize the software and not have every competitor have the same proprietary add ons they created and companies are willing to pay for. An example I dealt with a few years ago, I was working on an embedded project and the associated desktop software that the original developer utilized some GPL licensed open source libraries, compiled into the binaries (both embedded and desktop). When I did a license review and discussed it with the attorney it was deemed that GPL licensed components could not be included due to the licensing terms and the way that product was distributed along with the closed nature. In general I follow the rule, and have been told multiple times, that GPL (any version) with rare exception is not to be used in commercial software (including API's and server based products) unless you are strictly dynamically linking to the library. But if you are compiling it into your commercial product and especially if you are making alterations to it and compiling it in you are in violation of the license terms (and definitely the spirit of the license). Of course, if your product is open source, then that is a totally different story. Even more open licenses like Apache and MIT still have copyright notices you need to comply with at minimum, so all that has to be taken into consideration as it needs to be added to product manuals, about pages etc otherwise you are in technical violation of the terms. Hence, the license terms of any library should be a key consideration on whether you include it into your project.