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Most Amercans would be suprised to hear but US presidential election system had been influenced by Polish royal election rules. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik

by chewz 7y ago

Most Amercans would be suprised to hear but US presidential election system had been influenced by Polish royal election rules. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_elections_in_Poland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_elections_in_Poland https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-president-how-and-why-the-founders-created-a-chief-executive-by-ray-raphael/2012/06/23/gJQAc8DlxV_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.86bc4e76a870 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-president-how-and...

H8crilA 7y ago
Polish democracy was like MySpace or Altavista, good overall direction but then suddenly failed spectacularly, during Stanisław II Augustus times. He got steamrolled by Catherine the Great. The second iteration of democracy (like Facebook/Google) build on the other side of the Atlantic aged much much better. Also, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multicultural place (officially recognised languages: Polish, Latin, Ruthenian, German, Hebrew, Armenian) and a major European player.
- chewz 7y ago
  Also Warsaw Confederation in 1573 was first European act granting freedom of religion. A year after and influenced by St. Bartheleme's Day Massacre and general climate of religious violence in Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation
  - dappcoder 7y ago
    kjhhkkhhhhh
- chewz 7y ago
  > Włodkowic strongly supported the idea of conciliarism and pioneered the notion of peaceful coexistence among nations – a forerunner of modern theories of human rights. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic
  - chewz 7y ago
    In short Włodkowic argumented at 'International Tribunal' during the 1414 Concil of Constance that Teutonic Order cannot justify it's violence and conquest of neighbours just because they are pagans. That was some years before Columbus.. At that time it was customary for European knights to come as guest to Prussia and take part in military expeditions against pagans as a sort of hunting excercise (razzia). One of the more famous guests was Henry IV Tudor.
    - dappcoder 7y ago
      sdfads333
  - bobthechef 7y ago
    Worth checking out also along those lines is Laurentius Goslicius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawrzyniec_Grzyma%C5%82a_Go%C5%9Blicki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawrzyniec_Grzyma%C5%82a_Go%C5... His book "De Optimo Senatore" was highly influential abroad including Britain. Apparently, parts of his writings were the inspiration for the character of Polonius in Hamlet.
- chewz 7y ago
  > The second iteration of democracy (like Facebook/Google) build on the other side of the Atlantic aged much much better. As Chou Enlai famously quiped about the outcome of French Revolution - "It's too early to tell if it was positive or not".
  - B1FF_PSUVM 7y ago
    I enjoy that quip a lot, but some spoilsport wrote up that it was actually a translation mishap in the interview, and he was referring to the May 1968 insurrection (just a few years past at the time). Rats.
    - chewz 7y ago
      Thanks for the input. I meant that US Democracy is still younger then Commonwealth political system was when it had started to turn into anarchy and had been abused by plutocracy and foreign powers. So Americans beware of Russia meddling in your elections... We had been there in XVIII century.. :-)
- bobthechef 7y ago
  People overstate the catastrophic like they overstate the flaws of the liberum veto. Note that this system of government worked for hundreds (longer than most even remotely comparable states) of years and matured over time in precedential fashion. The royal elections were surprisingly civil and orderly. The distribution of power was according to principles of subsidiary. The 19th century provided historians an opportunity for overly critical assessments resulting from a combination of Poles looking for the causes behind the failure of their state and invaders rationalizing their partitioning of Poland. The ultimate failure of the Polish state is complex, involving a confluence of factors including catastrophic invasions, uprisings, foreign meddling, and internal conflict that stifled necessary reforms to deal with all of these. A good, short introduction to the development of the Polish state from the 10th century onward is Adam Zamoyski's "Poland: A History"[0]. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Poland-History-Adam-Zamoyski/dp/0781813018 https://www.amazon.com/Poland-History-Adam-Zamoyski/dp/07818...
- brokenkebab 7y ago
  Also, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multicultural place (officially recognised languages Although, not absolutely incorrect, it nevertheless sounds like a myth-making here. PLC (which is btw a modern, recently introduced term, the country was literally called Res Publica, Rzecz Pospolita in Polish) started as a union of Polish Kingdom where Polish predictably dominated, and Grand Duchy of Lithuania where Ruthenian was the language of state affairs. Ruthenian is also called Old Belarusian by Belarusians, and Old Ukrainian by Ukrainians and both are correct, because it's all more or less the same language at that time (modern Ukrainian, and Belarusian are still more mutually intelligible then different varieties of German). As eastern, and southern parts of the country were repeatedly thrashed by Russians, and Ottoman Empire, Poland became a dominant part (not the only reason, but I'm trying to be short), so Polish gradually gained the top position as the language of aristocracy, and politics all over the PLC, while other languages receded to unofficial home/family spheres, sometimes keeping official niches at municipal level. German, save for Prussian, and East Baltic lands, was in a very narrow use mostly because it was a sort of international language of Baltic trade, and Latin, as everywhere in Europe, was the language of education, and science. Then there were a number of ethnic, and religious groups such as Jews, Roma, Armenians which had some degree of self-government, so their languages where used in respective communities, but never had state-wide acceptance. Btw, it was not Hebrew which Jews spoke there, it was Yiddish which is very much a different thing. So the talk about 'officially recognized languages' is a little bit misleading as it can make an incorrect impression there were some sort of legal equality. And certainly PLC was polyethnic, with significant cultural variations, but majority of big medieval states in Europe were so. It's an interesting part of European history, with its own unique features, but I don't think making it too sugary makes any sense.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

by chewz 7y ago

H8crilA 7y ago

Polish democracy was like MySpace or Altavista, good overall direction but then suddenly failed spectacularly, during Stanisław II Augustus times. He got steamrolled by Catherine the Great. The second iteration of democracy (like Facebook/Google) build on the other side of the Atlantic aged much much better. Also, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multicultural place (officially recognised languages: Polish, Latin, Ruthenian, German, Hebrew, Armenian) and a major European player.

chewz 7y ago
Also Warsaw Confederation in 1573 was first European act granting freedom of religion. A year after and influenced by St. Bartheleme's Day Massacre and general climate of religious violence in Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation
- dappcoder 7y ago
  kjhhkkhhhhh
chewz 7y ago
> Włodkowic strongly supported the idea of conciliarism and pioneered the notion of peaceful coexistence among nations – a forerunner of modern theories of human rights. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawe%C5%82_W%C5%82odkowic
- chewz 7y ago
  In short Włodkowic argumented at 'International Tribunal' during the 1414 Concil of Constance that Teutonic Order cannot justify it's violence and conquest of neighbours just because they are pagans. That was some years before Columbus.. At that time it was customary for European knights to come as guest to Prussia and take part in military expeditions against pagans as a sort of hunting excercise (razzia). One of the more famous guests was Henry IV Tudor.
  - dappcoder 7y ago
    sdfads333
- bobthechef 7y ago
  Worth checking out also along those lines is Laurentius Goslicius: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawrzyniec_Grzyma%C5%82a_Go%C5%9Blicki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wawrzyniec_Grzyma%C5%82a_Go%C5... His book "De Optimo Senatore" was highly influential abroad including Britain. Apparently, parts of his writings were the inspiration for the character of Polonius in Hamlet.
chewz 7y ago
> The second iteration of democracy (like Facebook/Google) build on the other side of the Atlantic aged much much better. As Chou Enlai famously quiped about the outcome of French Revolution - "It's too early to tell if it was positive or not".
- B1FF_PSUVM 7y ago
  I enjoy that quip a lot, but some spoilsport wrote up that it was actually a translation mishap in the interview, and he was referring to the May 1968 insurrection (just a few years past at the time). Rats.
  - chewz 7y ago
    Thanks for the input. I meant that US Democracy is still younger then Commonwealth political system was when it had started to turn into anarchy and had been abused by plutocracy and foreign powers. So Americans beware of Russia meddling in your elections... We had been there in XVIII century.. :-)
bobthechef 7y ago
People overstate the catastrophic like they overstate the flaws of the liberum veto. Note that this system of government worked for hundreds (longer than most even remotely comparable states) of years and matured over time in precedential fashion. The royal elections were surprisingly civil and orderly. The distribution of power was according to principles of subsidiary. The 19th century provided historians an opportunity for overly critical assessments resulting from a combination of Poles looking for the causes behind the failure of their state and invaders rationalizing their partitioning of Poland. The ultimate failure of the Polish state is complex, involving a confluence of factors including catastrophic invasions, uprisings, foreign meddling, and internal conflict that stifled necessary reforms to deal with all of these. A good, short introduction to the development of the Polish state from the 10th century onward is Adam Zamoyski's "Poland: A History"[0]. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Poland-History-Adam-Zamoyski/dp/0781813018 https://www.amazon.com/Poland-History-Adam-Zamoyski/dp/07818...
brokenkebab 7y ago
Also, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a multicultural place (officially recognised languages Although, not absolutely incorrect, it nevertheless sounds like a myth-making here. PLC (which is btw a modern, recently introduced term, the country was literally called Res Publica, Rzecz Pospolita in Polish) started as a union of Polish Kingdom where Polish predictably dominated, and Grand Duchy of Lithuania where Ruthenian was the language of state affairs. Ruthenian is also called Old Belarusian by Belarusians, and Old Ukrainian by Ukrainians and both are correct, because it's all more or less the same language at that time (modern Ukrainian, and Belarusian are still more mutually intelligible then different varieties of German). As eastern, and southern parts of the country were repeatedly thrashed by Russians, and Ottoman Empire, Poland became a dominant part (not the only reason, but I'm trying to be short), so Polish gradually gained the top position as the language of aristocracy, and politics all over the PLC, while other languages receded to unofficial home/family spheres, sometimes keeping official niches at municipal level. German, save for Prussian, and East Baltic lands, was in a very narrow use mostly because it was a sort of international language of Baltic trade, and Latin, as everywhere in Europe, was the language of education, and science. Then there were a number of ethnic, and religious groups such as Jews, Roma, Armenians which had some degree of self-government, so their languages where used in respective communities, but never had state-wide acceptance. Btw, it was not Hebrew which Jews spoke there, it was Yiddish which is very much a different thing. So the talk about 'officially recognized languages' is a little bit misleading as it can make an incorrect impression there were some sort of legal equality. And certainly PLC was polyethnic, with significant cultural variations, but majority of big medieval states in Europe were so. It's an interesting part of European history, with its own unique features, but I don't think making it too sugary makes any sense.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]