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Has Access solved the corruption issue that plagued it for tens of years? While you can connect it to a "real" database engine trivially, a common use-case is v

Has Access solved the corruption issue that plagued it for tens of years? While you can connect it to a "real" database engine trivially, a common use-case is via a single MDB file that could become damaged. You could damage the MDB a number of ways including: - Leave Access running before shutdown (or power loss) - Intermittent network outage to the file server - Multiple users trying to access the same MDB (or anti-virus scans/locks, even on another user's machine) - JET inconsistent versions / Access inconsistent versions / Patch Levels The biggest headache though with Microsoft Access was never the product itself. It was that the product didn't really have a natural evolution. You'd start with a single MDB/single employee, but one day you'd need two employees or more (and security, and more tables, and this and that), and while you could migrate the MDB into a real database engine ($$$) and use Access as the front end, the record locking was funky and scaled poorly (plus control was limited). The whole product felt a bit like a mouse-trap. A nice shiny piece of cheese, that genuinely tasted good/worked well, but as soon as you tried to move it SNAP. I don't dislike Access, but it was always painful when a business outgrew it (whereas Fortune 500 companies live and die on Excel).

chaostheory 7y ago
Access and FileMaker made sense before the advent of open source, specifically Rails. Django, Postgresql, and MySQL. Both products make little sense now.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  > Rails. Django, Postgresql, and MySQL These are much harder for non-programmers to use than Access. With Access, almost completely non-technical people can set up their own database and make the queries they need to answer their own questions. With Postgres accessed from a general-purpose programming language, non-technical people need to hire someone to help them with every basic task. As far as I can tell Access has nothing to do with making websites, so it’s unclear what Django or Rails has to do with anything.
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    > As far as I can tell Access has nothing to do with making websites, so it’s unclear what Django or Rails has to do with anything. You can make apps with Django and Rails. They're not just "websites". Web apps are also still useful even when they're not public facing. > These are much harder for non-programmers to use than Access. With Access, almost completely non-technical people can set up their own database and make the queries they need to answer their own questions. That's the thing. Access and FileMaker aren't typically run by non-technical people. Yes, they aren't initially programmers, but they're usually technical people. FileMaker & Access users, whether they realize it or not, become programmers. I feel that you're confusing Access & FileMaker users with users of Excel. > With Postgres accessed from a general-purpose programming language, non-technical people need to hire someone to help them with every basic task. A relational database is not a big leap from either Access or FileMaker. I know all of this because I used to work closely with a team of these people, and at some points I've even helped maintain their code.
    - jacobolus 7y ago
      > I feel that you're confusing Access & FileMaker users with users of Excel. I know several people who use or used Access / Filemaker who were non-technical with previous experience mostly consisting of Word / light Excel use. For example, my anthropologist parents used Access for analyzing their manually gathered census data for a small rural village. The volunteer docents at a local museum in my hometown used Filemaker for managing the museum collection. > whether they realize it or not, become programmers Using the graphical tool in Access to construct queries does not require becoming a proficient programmer. > A relational database is not a big leap from either Access or FileMaker These are relational databases. They just have user interface affordances intended for non-technical users. Postgres does not.
      - chaostheory 7y ago
        > For example, my anthropologist parents used Access for analyzing their manually gathered census data for a small rural village. That's surprising. Most of the time, this is what Excel & Wordpress are used for by non-techies, since both FileMaker and Access feel daunting to most of them. Maybe this is exclusive to museums? This is anecdotal, but I've worked in a lot of different industries, and in all of them everyone maintaining FileMaker or Access were also knowledgeable enough to code in those platforms ie. they were techies before they started using FM or Access
- tluyben2 7y ago
  Yeah, I hear this a lot, but that really does not make a lot of sense. I hear the same for wysiwyg builders, CMS and 'codeless/lowcode' platforms, but they are all alive and kicking despite programmers thinking that it is much more easier to whip up something with Rails/Django. Those platforms are very far removed from 'the normal user'; you cannot just install ONE (!) installer file and then open a visual drag & drop editor and whip up what you want. In the worst case you have to install several things and some of this need to be configured; you already lost 99% of the business people there. You forget 'little things' like; they have to know html/css/js as well, or at least know how to add and work with Bootstrap. For business use you need Bootstrap controls; you need to know how to add and integrate them (people are not going to understand what it means to just 'bind to the onclick event') while in the before mentioned packages that is jut drag & drop. Installing new controls is too. Then, if they got as far that they run into having to securely deploy it somewhere. It is all just too hard. The web made them less used, but not because of Rails/Django, but because they are, legacy wise, less well fit for the web, but there is still a huge market for them and there are more and more appearing that solve some of these issues for web and definitely quite a substantial group will choose them over hiring 'real coders' to make things quickly. There are plenty of web shops (with big clients) doing their db work with Filemaker (and Filemaker does support web).
mobjack 7y ago
I used to build Access applications and never had data corruption issues while supporting 20 concurrent users. The key is separating the database and front end in different files. While I have many gripes with Access, it is a highly underrated tool. Using a real database engine requires infrastructure and lots of red tape to set up and it might not even be approved after waiting for months. With Access, you just put a file in a shared directory and you are done. No need to set up a web server for a front end either.

chaostheory 7y ago

Access and FileMaker made sense before the advent of open source, specifically Rails. Django, Postgresql, and MySQL. Both products make little sense now.

jacobolus 7y ago
> Rails. Django, Postgresql, and MySQL These are much harder for non-programmers to use than Access. With Access, almost completely non-technical people can set up their own database and make the queries they need to answer their own questions. With Postgres accessed from a general-purpose programming language, non-technical people need to hire someone to help them with every basic task. As far as I can tell Access has nothing to do with making websites, so it’s unclear what Django or Rails has to do with anything.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  > As far as I can tell Access has nothing to do with making websites, so it’s unclear what Django or Rails has to do with anything. You can make apps with Django and Rails. They're not just "websites". Web apps are also still useful even when they're not public facing. > These are much harder for non-programmers to use than Access. With Access, almost completely non-technical people can set up their own database and make the queries they need to answer their own questions. That's the thing. Access and FileMaker aren't typically run by non-technical people. Yes, they aren't initially programmers, but they're usually technical people. FileMaker & Access users, whether they realize it or not, become programmers. I feel that you're confusing Access & FileMaker users with users of Excel. > With Postgres accessed from a general-purpose programming language, non-technical people need to hire someone to help them with every basic task. A relational database is not a big leap from either Access or FileMaker. I know all of this because I used to work closely with a team of these people, and at some points I've even helped maintain their code.
  - jacobolus 7y ago
    > I feel that you're confusing Access & FileMaker users with users of Excel. I know several people who use or used Access / Filemaker who were non-technical with previous experience mostly consisting of Word / light Excel use. For example, my anthropologist parents used Access for analyzing their manually gathered census data for a small rural village. The volunteer docents at a local museum in my hometown used Filemaker for managing the museum collection. > whether they realize it or not, become programmers Using the graphical tool in Access to construct queries does not require becoming a proficient programmer. > A relational database is not a big leap from either Access or FileMaker These are relational databases. They just have user interface affordances intended for non-technical users. Postgres does not.
    - chaostheory 7y ago
      > For example, my anthropologist parents used Access for analyzing their manually gathered census data for a small rural village. That's surprising. Most of the time, this is what Excel & Wordpress are used for by non-techies, since both FileMaker and Access feel daunting to most of them. Maybe this is exclusive to museums? This is anecdotal, but I've worked in a lot of different industries, and in all of them everyone maintaining FileMaker or Access were also knowledgeable enough to code in those platforms ie. they were techies before they started using FM or Access
tluyben2 7y ago
Yeah, I hear this a lot, but that really does not make a lot of sense. I hear the same for wysiwyg builders, CMS and 'codeless/lowcode' platforms, but they are all alive and kicking despite programmers thinking that it is much more easier to whip up something with Rails/Django. Those platforms are very far removed from 'the normal user'; you cannot just install ONE (!) installer file and then open a visual drag & drop editor and whip up what you want. In the worst case you have to install several things and some of this need to be configured; you already lost 99% of the business people there. You forget 'little things' like; they have to know html/css/js as well, or at least know how to add and work with Bootstrap. For business use you need Bootstrap controls; you need to know how to add and integrate them (people are not going to understand what it means to just 'bind to the onclick event') while in the before mentioned packages that is jut drag & drop. Installing new controls is too. Then, if they got as far that they run into having to securely deploy it somewhere. It is all just too hard. The web made them less used, but not because of Rails/Django, but because they are, legacy wise, less well fit for the web, but there is still a huge market for them and there are more and more appearing that solve some of these issues for web and definitely quite a substantial group will choose them over hiring 'real coders' to make things quickly. There are plenty of web shops (with big clients) doing their db work with Filemaker (and Filemaker does support web).

mobjack 7y ago

I used to build Access applications and never had data corruption issues while supporting 20 concurrent users. The key is separating the database and front end in different files. While I have many gripes with Access, it is a highly underrated tool. Using a real database engine requires infrastructure and lots of red tape to set up and it might not even be approved after waiting for months. With Access, you just put a file in a shared directory and you are done. No need to set up a web server for a front end either.