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So you believe paying more taxes somehow gives the taxpayers more control over their country ? Giving away more money doesn't mean you have more control over ho

by leppr 7y ago

So you believe paying more taxes somehow gives the taxpayers more control over their country ? Giving away more money doesn't mean you have more control over how said money is used. The most direct consequence actually goes in the other direction, you have now less agency (=money). There's no obvious mechanism that makes a monopoly (=government) more accountable the more money it's given.

nicoburns 7y ago
It does enable it to spend on things like healthcare to prevent monopolies (or oligopolies which are often just as bad) from exploiting people. At least in theory a government is a benevolent monopoly, which is often better than one which only cares about profit. The US has issues with government corruption, but this seems at least in part to do with americans' disdain for their government, which is partly because underfunding makes it difficult for it to operate smoothly.
smolder 7y ago
I don't believe taxes give me more control. What I believe is that taxes aren't inherently bad and that we should express more concern over where the money goes and what economic effects it has, not paint all taxation as bad. Effective democracies do have an explicit mechanism to make government accountable: votes on issues (like where taxes are gathered and how they're spent) and representation. Through an effective democracy, using government as a proxy, people can also keep bad behavior by big amoral profit-motivated corporations in check. We don't have an effective democracy in the US. That's because it is overtly influenced by money, which, amorally or immorally, goes to help the spender.
- leppr 7y ago
  There's very little democracy in France as well. Corporate lobbying might not be as prevalent (simply because they don't have as many humongous corporations), but it's still the same old self-serving oligarchy story. If we really want to compare, American-style plutocracy might actually be more democratic, because it's easier for a diverse array of citizen to become rich, than it is for French citizens to join the elite club from ENA [1] and co. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47991257 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47991257
  - JetSpiegel 7y ago
    America legalized corruption (Citizens United), so I fail to see how is this more democratic.
    - leppr 7y ago
      Money is more fluid and impartial than political club camaraderie. It crosses and fills the moats dug up by the ruling class better than the occasional "working class", "diverse" guest-candidate could ever hope to. I'm not saying the USA is a Democracy, just making the point that the average USA citizen may have slightly more hard (=concrete, realistic) agency over their rulers than French citizens do.

by leppr 7y ago

nicoburns 7y ago

It does enable it to spend on things like healthcare to prevent monopolies (or oligopolies which are often just as bad) from exploiting people. At least in theory a government is a benevolent monopoly, which is often better than one which only cares about profit. The US has issues with government corruption, but this seems at least in part to do with americans' disdain for their government, which is partly because underfunding makes it difficult for it to operate smoothly.

smolder 7y ago

I don't believe taxes give me more control. What I believe is that taxes aren't inherently bad and that we should express more concern over where the money goes and what economic effects it has, not paint all taxation as bad. Effective democracies do have an explicit mechanism to make government accountable: votes on issues (like where taxes are gathered and how they're spent) and representation. Through an effective democracy, using government as a proxy, people can also keep bad behavior by big amoral profit-motivated corporations in check. We don't have an effective democracy in the US. That's because it is overtly influenced by money, which, amorally or immorally, goes to help the spender.

leppr 7y ago
There's very little democracy in France as well. Corporate lobbying might not be as prevalent (simply because they don't have as many humongous corporations), but it's still the same old self-serving oligarchy story. If we really want to compare, American-style plutocracy might actually be more democratic, because it's easier for a diverse array of citizen to become rich, than it is for French citizens to join the elite club from ENA [1] and co. [1]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47991257 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47991257
- JetSpiegel 7y ago
  America legalized corruption (Citizens United), so I fail to see how is this more democratic.
  - leppr 7y ago
    Money is more fluid and impartial than political club camaraderie. It crosses and fills the moats dug up by the ruling class better than the occasional "working class", "diverse" guest-candidate could ever hope to. I'm not saying the USA is a Democracy, just making the point that the average USA citizen may have slightly more hard (=concrete, realistic) agency over their rulers than French citizens do.