8 ms·

The things Amazon wants and needs -- particularly, desirability by young, affluent techies -- don't really exist in "middle America". For example, public trans

The things Amazon wants and needs -- particularly, desirability by young, affluent techies -- don't really exist in "middle America". For example, public transit. Only a handful of US cities have decent public transit at all, probably the only cheap city in that group is Philly. You're not gonna find good transit in Cleveland or Phoenix or Nashville, because they've chosen not to seriously invest in it. Is that Amazon's fault somehow?

ok_coo 7y ago
Chicago has decent public transportation and plenty of young, affluent techies. It's not SV or NYC but it fits the bill for a midwest city. Chicago, and IL, have plenty of issues to work through though so I get why they didn't want to setup a HQ there.
- whb07 7y ago
  Chicago has a doomsday clock that keeps ticking down with its pensions and the state's pensions. Those governments might start raising the taxes more and more and fall into a tighter death spiral as it pushes people away, leading to less revenue.
  - keenmaster 7y ago
    The pension explanation doesn't make sense. Chicago would gladly offer tax breaks to any company opening a major HQ here, as it has in the past. It's had a streak of being business friendly. I also don't get the "violence" explanation. Violence is terrible and everyone in Chicago wants to end it, but the average person is far removed from any shootings.
    - whb07 7y ago
      Can't exactly guarantee offer tax breaks if they are short on tax revenue, and while every government federal/local is always short Chicago/Illinois is deathly short. The tax increases have already begun and there have been weird talks coming out of the Chicago mayor's office essentially asking for a tax on the rest of the state to help out Chicago proper.
      - keenmaster 7y ago
        If tax breaks attract a large company, Chicago still gets tax revenue from all their employees. Property tax revenue, income tax revenue, and consumption taxes all go up. This is especially true if that catalyzes further development across the local economy.
        SilasX 7y ago
        All of that was true of Amazon's move to NYC, but the locals still balked at the "massive tax breaks" given to the company.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
keenmaster 7y ago
Chicago alone is a glaring exception. - It's not constrained for space, rent is relatively cheap - Good public transit and airports - Great food scene - Cultural mecca - Young people love it - Several great universities are either in it or nearby - Pedestrian/biker friendly - Each of the many neighborhoods is like a different town with its own character Google and Facebook recently made minor expansions into Chicago, but why the trickle? I get that in the short-run the elite want to be "where it's at" i.e. SF and NYC, but Chicago has so much to offer. Tech companies would get a lot for their money if they start a virtuous cycle of investment and employment here. Many STEM students from UChicago, Northwestern, and UIUC would rather stay home but the opportunity in California is too great to pass up.
- SilasX 7y ago
  - They will tax the crap out of anything that moves because of impossibly high, undischargeable pension obligations, and techies will be an attractive target.
- novok 7y ago
  The weather is worse, there is less of a gravity effect. Tech workers attract more tech workers because of the liquidity of the employment market.
- opportune 7y ago
  I agree but Chicago has a bit of a commute issue still. I'm assuming most execs and more senior employees would want to live in the north shore area like new trier and new trier->loop is a bit more of a commute than los altos->mountain view. Also I think people unfamiliar with Chicago don't understand the nature of its crime issues (namely that it's just as safe as other big cities as long as you avoid the worst areas). One other potential issue is that a lot of the good software engineers in Chicago are working for reasonably high incomes at trading companies which maybe big tech doesn't want to compete with or has culture concerns And municipal corruption. But other than all those it's great
idDriven 7y ago
In Ancient Rome, where your namesake hails from, wouldn't a superwealthy individual(corporation) be considered obligated to use that accumulated wealth in part to provide for the public infrastructure?
betterunix2 7y ago
Yet the Bay area has a mediocre public transit system that does not provide convenient service to major employers like Facebook, Google, or Apple. Transit service in the Bay Area is so bad that the major tech companies run private commuter buses to make up the gap. Somehow that has not stopped tech companies from building new offices around the Bay.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  In some ways, Bay Area transit and traffic woes may be a root cause for the invention of ridesharing.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    Santa Barbara’s was
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  That's the high-level version, but here's the detailed version. If you look at a VTA (local bus) map, it's oriented around the Lockheed campus (plus Yahoo, Marvell and Juniper.) That's because Lockheed told the VTA to do that. 25 years later, when Google approached the VTA, the VTA said no. Hence the private buses with wifi. Since Google is buying all of Mountain View's office space, they would really need to reroute the entire VTA now.
selimthegrim 7y ago
Cleveland is largely the state of Ohio’s fault, and Phoenix is investing in light rail.
rayiner 7y ago
> For example, public transit. Only a handful of US cities have decent public transit at all That’s a weird criterion given that the Bay Area has awful transit.

ok_coo 7y ago

Chicago has decent public transportation and plenty of young, affluent techies. It's not SV or NYC but it fits the bill for a midwest city. Chicago, and IL, have plenty of issues to work through though so I get why they didn't want to setup a HQ there.

whb07 7y ago
Chicago has a doomsday clock that keeps ticking down with its pensions and the state's pensions. Those governments might start raising the taxes more and more and fall into a tighter death spiral as it pushes people away, leading to less revenue.
- keenmaster 7y ago
  The pension explanation doesn't make sense. Chicago would gladly offer tax breaks to any company opening a major HQ here, as it has in the past. It's had a streak of being business friendly. I also don't get the "violence" explanation. Violence is terrible and everyone in Chicago wants to end it, but the average person is far removed from any shootings.
  - whb07 7y ago
    Can't exactly guarantee offer tax breaks if they are short on tax revenue, and while every government federal/local is always short Chicago/Illinois is deathly short. The tax increases have already begun and there have been weird talks coming out of the Chicago mayor's office essentially asking for a tax on the rest of the state to help out Chicago proper.
    - keenmaster 7y ago
      If tax breaks attract a large company, Chicago still gets tax revenue from all their employees. Property tax revenue, income tax revenue, and consumption taxes all go up. This is especially true if that catalyzes further development across the local economy.
      - SilasX 7y ago
        All of that was true of Amazon's move to NYC, but the locals still balked at the "massive tax breaks" given to the company.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

keenmaster 7y ago

Chicago alone is a glaring exception. - It's not constrained for space, rent is relatively cheap - Good public transit and airports - Great food scene - Cultural mecca - Young people love it - Several great universities are either in it or nearby - Pedestrian/biker friendly - Each of the many neighborhoods is like a different town with its own character Google and Facebook recently made minor expansions into Chicago, but why the trickle? I get that in the short-run the elite want to be "where it's at" i.e. SF and NYC, but Chicago has so much to offer. Tech companies would get a lot for their money if they start a virtuous cycle of investment and employment here. Many STEM students from UChicago, Northwestern, and UIUC would rather stay home but the opportunity in California is too great to pass up.

SilasX 7y ago
- They will tax the crap out of anything that moves because of impossibly high, undischargeable pension obligations, and techies will be an attractive target.
novok 7y ago
The weather is worse, there is less of a gravity effect. Tech workers attract more tech workers because of the liquidity of the employment market.
opportune 7y ago
I agree but Chicago has a bit of a commute issue still. I'm assuming most execs and more senior employees would want to live in the north shore area like new trier and new trier->loop is a bit more of a commute than los altos->mountain view. Also I think people unfamiliar with Chicago don't understand the nature of its crime issues (namely that it's just as safe as other big cities as long as you avoid the worst areas). One other potential issue is that a lot of the good software engineers in Chicago are working for reasonably high incomes at trading companies which maybe big tech doesn't want to compete with or has culture concerns And municipal corruption. But other than all those it's great

idDriven 7y ago

In Ancient Rome, where your namesake hails from, wouldn't a superwealthy individual(corporation) be considered obligated to use that accumulated wealth in part to provide for the public infrastructure?

betterunix2 7y ago

Yet the Bay area has a mediocre public transit system that does not provide convenient service to major employers like Facebook, Google, or Apple. Transit service in the Bay Area is so bad that the major tech companies run private commuter buses to make up the gap. Somehow that has not stopped tech companies from building new offices around the Bay.

Apocryphon 7y ago
In some ways, Bay Area transit and traffic woes may be a root cause for the invention of ridesharing.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Santa Barbara’s was
redis_mlc 7y ago
That's the high-level version, but here's the detailed version. If you look at a VTA (local bus) map, it's oriented around the Lockheed campus (plus Yahoo, Marvell and Juniper.) That's because Lockheed told the VTA to do that. 25 years later, when Google approached the VTA, the VTA said no. Hence the private buses with wifi. Since Google is buying all of Mountain View's office space, they would really need to reroute the entire VTA now.

selimthegrim 7y ago

Cleveland is largely the state of Ohio’s fault, and Phoenix is investing in light rail.

rayiner 7y ago

> For example, public transit. Only a handful of US cities have decent public transit at all That’s a weird criterion given that the Bay Area has awful transit.