4 ms·

There's no correct answer to this. The answer clearly depends on where people live.

by ckastner 7y ago

mc32 7y ago
It also depends on their lifestyle (how wisely they manage their income).
thatfrenchguy 7y ago
No, it’s not. If you make 200k in the Bay Area you’re not middle class.
- tudelo 7y ago
  What are you?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- evo_9 7y ago
  ...but if you make 200k in Detroit you're above middle class... so again, like OP said, this is all relative to where you live.
  - slumming-it 7y ago
    I dunno why people make such a big deal about Detroit. On paper, the statistics might look bad, but if you've ever visited Detroit or spent an amount of time there, it's very much like NYC.
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Even in the Bay Area you can get a decent apartment or home mortgage for $40-70k a year. Taxes on $200k are gonna be less than $25k. Parking and gas are a few hundred at most, food might be as high as $1000 if you've got a big family or eat out a lot. Let's guess high and say another few thousand for utilities, phones, etc. Let's also say you've got some family health crises your insurance won't cover that run to $10k out of pocket. That leaves you at least $90,000 free and clear. If you can't live comfortably and save for retirement with ninety grand a year, you either have some outstanding expenses (severe medical disability, etc.), or you're making some very bad decisions.
  - cannonedhamster 7y ago
    I literally just looked at home prices in the bay area. I found a literal handful of homes/apartments available in that price range. One was a 300 sq foot apartment, most of the rest were unbuilt lots. I'm not sure if you're talking about auctions or foreclosures, etc. Can you elaborate on that? I can't even get a home in my much lower cost area for that price. I can tell you $1k/month for a family of three in my area is typical grocery expenses before eating out. We can certainly cut back but bargain basement is about $800/month unless we're eating nothing but ramen and cereal.
    - deathanatos 7y ago
      I interpreted the $40-$70k/yr ($3.3-$5.8/mo) figure as the cost of the mortgage, not the home. This should correspond to a roughly $1M loan, which, with a downpayment of around $200-$300k (the cost of a house elsewhere…) gets close to $1.3M, which pretty nearly the median list for much of the Bay Area (corresponding to ~1200 sqft in SF). On the lower end ($40k/yr or $3.3k/mo), you should be able to find a studio in SF for that or for a bit more, a 1 bedroom (median 1 bed is ~$3.6k/mo in SF). (I'm not saying that's good, just that it shouldn't be as bad as you think.)
    - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
      I'm talking about the yearly rental rate/mortgage payment. This is my main source: https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-in-san-francisco https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-i... It's possible I lowballed some things, but see my other comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20415130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20415130
mikestew 7y ago
One could turn it around say that no middle-class people live in, say, Medina, WA (where BillG lives). Cost-of-living determines which class or classes get to live there, not the other way around. At the extreme, in a hypothetical neighborhood of $10MM NYC penthouses are you going to say $1MM/year is "middle-class"? If so, we simply aren't going to come anywhere close to agreement.
- danans 7y ago
  Any statistical analysis can have nonsense results if you choose a ridiculously biased sample. The US census has various methods for establishing a sensible subdivision of space for deriving statistics like this, including metropolitan areas, micropolitan areas, and combined statistical areas [1] The examples of Medina WA and penthouses in NYC don't fit any of those. 1. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/economic-census/guidance-geographies/levels.html#par_textimage_5 https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/economic-census/guid...
charlesdm 7y ago
And it also depends on the tax rate. Making $/€100k gross, pre tax, means something different in San Francisco vs say Barcelona.
xienze 7y ago
Do you think voters really care about that? To a huge number of them, $100K+ per year is a fantastic sum of money, and dammit, you need to pay your fair share. You're "rich", after all! Or at least, rich _from where they're standing_. Trying to make arguments about cost of living aren't going to help one bit when it comes time for a politician's promises to be paid for.

There's no correct answer to this. The answer clearly depends on where people live.

mc32 7y ago

It also depends on their lifestyle (how wisely they manage their income).

thatfrenchguy 7y ago

No, it’s not. If you make 200k in the Bay Area you’re not middle class.

tudelo 7y ago
What are you?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
evo_9 7y ago
...but if you make 200k in Detroit you're above middle class... so again, like OP said, this is all relative to where you live.
- slumming-it 7y ago
  I dunno why people make such a big deal about Detroit. On paper, the statistics might look bad, but if you've ever visited Detroit or spent an amount of time there, it's very much like NYC.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
Even in the Bay Area you can get a decent apartment or home mortgage for $40-70k a year. Taxes on $200k are gonna be less than $25k. Parking and gas are a few hundred at most, food might be as high as $1000 if you've got a big family or eat out a lot. Let's guess high and say another few thousand for utilities, phones, etc. Let's also say you've got some family health crises your insurance won't cover that run to $10k out of pocket. That leaves you at least $90,000 free and clear. If you can't live comfortably and save for retirement with ninety grand a year, you either have some outstanding expenses (severe medical disability, etc.), or you're making some very bad decisions.
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  I literally just looked at home prices in the bay area. I found a literal handful of homes/apartments available in that price range. One was a 300 sq foot apartment, most of the rest were unbuilt lots. I'm not sure if you're talking about auctions or foreclosures, etc. Can you elaborate on that? I can't even get a home in my much lower cost area for that price. I can tell you $1k/month for a family of three in my area is typical grocery expenses before eating out. We can certainly cut back but bargain basement is about $800/month unless we're eating nothing but ramen and cereal.
  - deathanatos 7y ago
    I interpreted the $40-$70k/yr ($3.3-$5.8/mo) figure as the cost of the mortgage, not the home. This should correspond to a roughly $1M loan, which, with a downpayment of around $200-$300k (the cost of a house elsewhere…) gets close to $1.3M, which pretty nearly the median list for much of the Bay Area (corresponding to ~1200 sqft in SF). On the lower end ($40k/yr or $3.3k/mo), you should be able to find a studio in SF for that or for a bit more, a 1 bedroom (median 1 bed is ~$3.6k/mo in SF). (I'm not saying that's good, just that it shouldn't be as bad as you think.)
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    I'm talking about the yearly rental rate/mortgage payment. This is my main source: https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-in-san-francisco https://smartasset.com/mortgage/what-is-the-cost-of-living-i... It's possible I lowballed some things, but see my other comment. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20415130 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20415130

mikestew 7y ago

One could turn it around say that no middle-class people live in, say, Medina, WA (where BillG lives). Cost-of-living determines which class or classes get to live there, not the other way around. At the extreme, in a hypothetical neighborhood of $10MM NYC penthouses are you going to say $1MM/year is "middle-class"? If so, we simply aren't going to come anywhere close to agreement.

danans 7y ago
Any statistical analysis can have nonsense results if you choose a ridiculously biased sample. The US census has various methods for establishing a sensible subdivision of space for deriving statistics like this, including metropolitan areas, micropolitan areas, and combined statistical areas [1] The examples of Medina WA and penthouses in NYC don't fit any of those. 1. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/economic-census/guidance-geographies/levels.html#par_textimage_5 https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/economic-census/guid...

charlesdm 7y ago

And it also depends on the tax rate. Making $/€100k gross, pre tax, means something different in San Francisco vs say Barcelona.

xienze 7y ago

Do you think voters really care about that? To a huge number of them, $100K+ per year is a fantastic sum of money, and dammit, you need to pay your fair share. You're "rich", after all! Or at least, rich _from where they're standing_. Trying to make arguments about cost of living aren't going to help one bit when it comes time for a politician's promises to be paid for.