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Back in the day (early 00s), you could do something similar with ZOPE: develop on a production server, in a private session and you could mock about with your v

Back in the day (early 00s), you could do something similar with ZOPE: develop on a production server, in a private session and you could mock about with your version of the code, and when you were satisfied push it through for everybody else. This was because the database that was holding the users, permissions, ... was also holding the code. It was lightyears ahead of J2EE at the time. (Now I wonder what happened to it)

blunte 7y ago
I know that Plone, which is built on Zope, found its place in a lot of universities and governments. So I imagine Zope lives on with necessary support from its big users.
- slinkp 7y ago
  Yup. Plone is still pretty active https://github.com/plone https://github.com/plone
slinkp 7y ago
Former professional Zope guy here! (I made a living building things with it in the early-mid 2000s). What happened to Zope? Well, Chris McDonough (creator of Pyramid, and Zope veteran) blogged about this in 2011 and from my perspective he got it exactly right. I still think this history is fascinating and I wish more people knew it. https://web.archive.org/web/20161019153348/http://plope.com/Members/chrism/in_defense_of_zope_libraries https://web.archive.org/web/20161019153348/http://plope.com/... After the history lesson, some of his "lessons learned" bullet points seem very apropos in the context of Dark, particularly the first two: * "Most developers are very, very risk-averse. They like taking small steps, or no steps at all. You have to allow them to consume familiar technologies and allow them to disuse things that get in their way." * "The allure of a completely integrated, monolithic system that effectively prevents the use of alternate development techniques and technologies eventually wears off. And when it does, it wears off with a vengeance."
- pbiggar 7y ago
  Thanks for pointing to that, it's super interesting. One of the things we designed Dark around was being able to safely and easily continuously deliver language and framework changes. The Zope 3 project was a disaster by the sound of it, and I would hope this will allow us avoid a similar fate. That's the goal. Also, we're pretty pro-testing (though also type systems, which help too).

blunte 7y ago

I know that Plone, which is built on Zope, found its place in a lot of universities and governments. So I imagine Zope lives on with necessary support from its big users.

slinkp 7y ago
Yup. Plone is still pretty active https://github.com/plone https://github.com/plone

slinkp 7y ago

Former professional Zope guy here! (I made a living building things with it in the early-mid 2000s). What happened to Zope? Well, Chris McDonough (creator of Pyramid, and Zope veteran) blogged about this in 2011 and from my perspective he got it exactly right. I still think this history is fascinating and I wish more people knew it. https://web.archive.org/web/20161019153348/http://plope.com/Members/chrism/in_defense_of_zope_libraries https://web.archive.org/web/20161019153348/http://plope.com/... After the history lesson, some of his "lessons learned" bullet points seem very apropos in the context of Dark, particularly the first two: * "Most developers are very, very risk-averse. They like taking small steps, or no steps at all. You have to allow them to consume familiar technologies and allow them to disuse things that get in their way." * "The allure of a completely integrated, monolithic system that effectively prevents the use of alternate development techniques and technologies eventually wears off. And when it does, it wears off with a vengeance."

pbiggar 7y ago
Thanks for pointing to that, it's super interesting. One of the things we designed Dark around was being able to safely and easily continuously deliver language and framework changes. The Zope 3 project was a disaster by the sound of it, and I would hope this will allow us avoid a similar fate. That's the goal. Also, we're pretty pro-testing (though also type systems, which help too).